Misplaced support posts and incompetent contractors

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Vivian
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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Vivian » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:29 pm

The cost works out to approx $415 inc materials & labor, using 36 pcs of 2x3's. I'm now leaning towards having it extended.
When a backyard studio has R22 insulation vs. R15, I wonder if the thicker insulation may have a alleviating effect on potential moisture & mold issues... or am I overthinking this? : )

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Shannon
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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Shannon » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:05 pm

Well that cost is fairly minimal so it is likely a good move. I’m not sure it has a huge effect on mould or moisture issues but it will make it more comfortable and easier to climate control.
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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Vivian » Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:43 am

Ok I've decided to have the stud extension done so we can use R22 insulation!

Yet another question from me... : )
From all the videos I've watched, 'best practice' is to put a drip cap over the top of the window frame and also over the top of the window trim.
But my new contractor's opinion is that it's better to seal the top edge of the window trim to the siding, using caulking that expands and contracts.
I would really appreciate your confirming which way is better, thanks! Here's a pic of the window trim...
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Shannon
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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Shannon » Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:56 am

With the trim you are using it would have to be a custom made piece to work properly between that and the window frame. I would recommend it is over the window trim . Seal it to the trim and the wood siding in your case to the drip edge as well.
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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Vivian » Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:23 pm

Thanks very much, Shannon. I'll print and give your recommendations to my contractor.

Btw the siding is 'multi-colored' at this stage because some pieces of the old cedar siding got sanded, but my new contractor suggested it's not necessary, and to just power-wash the down after they're installed, and let them dry before painting.
I said I'm not comfortable with powerwashing the sides of the shed after the old cedar siding is re-installed, as I had a serious carpenter problem at my house...was told it was due to moisture issues.
(Years ago I had my house deck powerwashed, and the carpenter nest was found in the vicinity) so I will hand wash the siding myself, and make sure they're good and ready before re-painting(?)

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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Vivian » Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:25 pm

The brown siding were from the back and right side, which were never painted originally. Only the front and left sides were painted green originally. I will have all sides painted this time!

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A. Spruce
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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by A. Spruce » Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:56 pm

With the siding butting to the trim, I'd flash the top, eliminate any chance of water getting in. The siding would still be caulked to the flashing.

Butting the siding into the trim will require vigilant maintenance of the caulking, any failure will result in water getting behind the trim and siding and causing bigger problems. Personally, I prefer to install trim over the siding. It still gets caulked, but in the event of a caulk failure, it isn't a straight shot into the framing and more sensitive areas of the structure.
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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Vivian » Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:22 am

A. Spruce wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:56 pm
With the siding butting to the trim, I'd flash the top, eliminate any chance of water getting in. The siding would still be caulked to the flashing.
Hi Spruce! I guessed that you finally managed to take a day or two off!
Ok, from what you wrote, the "flashing" means the "drip edge", right? I'm still learning the terminology...

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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Vivian » Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:32 am

A. Spruce wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:56 pm

Butting the siding into the trim will require vigilant maintenance of the caulking, any failure will result in water getting behind the trim and siding and causing bigger problems. Personally, I prefer to install trim over the siding. It still gets caulked, but in the event of a caulk failure, it isn't a straight shot into the framing and more sensitive areas of the structure.
Yeah, I think it would have been better to butt the siding to the window frame, and install trim over the siding. I'll ask the contractor why he installed trim first butted the siding into the trim; is there any advantage to this method?
If the caulking fails (planning to use LePage QUAD Window, Door & Siding sealant), would the Tyvek and Blueskin help to keep water way from the framing? I guess it really depends on how well the Tyvek and Blueskin was installed... Also, my studio has 'rainscreening' with 3/8" furring strips, which is supposed to help moisture circulate and get released via the air gap between siding and Tyvek. Do you think rainscreening really works to keep moisture issues at bay?

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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by A. Spruce » Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:56 am

No, haven't taken any time off, Shannon and I sort of tag-team things, we've got different product and methods experience, so we kind of trade off as the topic wanders back and forth.

Yes, flashing = drip edge, though I'd use a Z-bar over drip edge so that the flashing isn't seen.
Z-bar gets it's name from its shape, it's got two 90* bends in it so that it comes down the wall, out over the trim, and down the face of the trim, where as drip edge has a 90* and 45* bend, down the wall out over the trim, and then sticks out over the face of the trim instead of hugging it like the z-bar will. It's mostly aesthetics, but will also keep driving rain out from under the flashing.

I have never used blueskin, rainscreening, or Quad caulk, so I can't speak to any of them specifically. As far as caulk goes, in your case I'd use and elastomeric like Big Stretch or Lexel, which has superior stick and stretch ability over silicone and acrylic latex caulks. Because you've got wood siding that will move A LOT with seasonal weather changes and you've got butted trim, you need something that can handle 3/8" movement or more, elastomerics can do that.
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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Shannon » Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:02 am

Quad caulk is a lot like big stretch and will withstand the smaller movements that you should see in the shed materials.
The rain screen , blue skin and Tyvek will all give you an extra layer of protection and if installed well will really help in your climate. However do keep an eye on all caulking joints every year to be sure everything stays good.
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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Vivian » Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:20 pm

A. Spruce wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:56 am

Yes, flashing = drip edge, though I'd use a Z-bar over drip edge so that the flashing isn't seen.
Z-bar gets it's name from its shape, it's got two 90* bends in it so that it comes down the wall, out over the trim, and down the face of the trim, where as drip edge has a 90* and 45* bend, down the wall out over the trim, and then sticks out over the face of the trim instead of hugging it like the z-bar will. It's mostly aesthetics, but will also keep driving rain out from under the flashing.
Thanks Spruce! My new contractor seems to work fast - he already installed drip edge over the wooden window trim. He said he adapted the existing drip edge that I purchased, that was for the bottom perimeter of the studio. I've attached a couple of pics. At this point, all I can do is hope that what he's done will be good enough to prevent moisture ingress... I've attached a couple of pics. Maybe I could ask him to tape the upper edge of the drip edge, on the window that hasn't been cladded yet (?)
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Vivian
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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Vivian » Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:24 pm

A. Spruce wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:56 am

I have never used blueskin, rainscreening, or Quad caulk, so I can't speak to any of them specifically. As far as caulk goes, in your case I'd use and elastomeric like Big Stretch or Lexel, which has superior stick and stretch ability over silicone and acrylic latex caulks. Because you've got wood siding that will move A LOT with seasonal weather changes and you've got butted trim, you need something that can handle 3/8" movement or more, elastomerics can do that.
I've checked Home Depot and Lowes, and both do not stock Big Stretch or Lexel. Seems these two products are not in Canada.
The LePage QUAD I bought is "3x stretch". There is also another LePage QUAD MAX, which is "5x stretch."
My guess is that 3x stretch is enough, but would it be better to use the QUAD MAX? I think the seams we seal would not be greater than 1/4"...

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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Vivian » Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:29 pm

Shannon wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:02 am
Quad caulk is a lot like big stretch and will withstand the smaller movements that you should see in the shed materials.
The rain screen , blue skin and Tyvek will all give you an extra layer of protection and if installed well will really help in your climate. However do keep an eye on all caulking joints every year to be sure everything stays good.
Well, I see that parts of the blue skin have wrinkles and some areas have small air pockets. As for the Tyvek, it's not perfect either but not much I can do about it at this point.
For sure I will keep an eye on all the caulking joints, and re-do if need be!

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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by A. Spruce » Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:38 pm

According to Shannon, Quad is a similar product to Big Stretch/Lexel, so you'll probably be fine with it. If you've already got the Quad X3, use that, if it doesn't cut the mustard with flexibility, recaulk with Quad X5 when the need arises.
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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Vivian » Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:27 pm

Will do! Thanks Spruce & Shannon!

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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Shannon » Sat Oct 27, 2018 3:43 am

Big stretch and Lexel are both available here maybe just not at the big box you were shopping at? My local HomeHardware sticks both products. The Qaud will work fine though and you have it already.
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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Shannon » Sat Oct 27, 2018 3:43 am

BTW that drip cap is fine just as it’s installed.
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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Vivian » Sun Oct 28, 2018 2:20 am

Thanks Shannon! Good to know the drip caps meet your stamp of approval!

I'm now trying to decide on which subfloor panels to use, and whether a vapour barrier (6mil poly) is still advisable under the panels. My contractor suggested Dricore - the insulated version - and it is 1" thick.

Currently Lowes has this "Barricade Air Plus" subfloor panel on sale:
https://www.lowes.ca/subfloor/barricade ... =barricade

My contractor said this may be a better choice, mostly because it's 0.875" thick, and bonus is 30% cheaper than Dricore, which is 1" thick. The thickness matters because the door frame, the way it was done, only allows for 1.5" floor thickness (for subfloor and vinyl plank flooring), for the door to open into the studio. It'd be better if there is enough space for a floor mat inside and for the door to open in, over the mat... So I think it may be better to use subfloor panels that are not insulated, sacrifice some of the R-value for less thickness; and, the non-insulated version has "airflow." I really don't know how airflow would work between concrete pad and subfloor, when all four walls will be well insulated and the stud extension sil plates have barrier installed underneath.

Barricade has and an insulated version, which does not allow airflow, similar to Dricore:
https://www.lowes.ca/floor-underlayment ... =barricade

So I wonder, given my type of "out building," whether it'd be better to have airflow and sacrifice R-value, or install the insulated version which does not have airflow but has higher R-value and is thicker.

Another question is whether we should still install a vapour barrier (like 6mil poly) under the "Barricade Air Plus" or "Barricade Insulated." I read some of the Q&A at Lowes website, and it sounds like a vapour barrier is not recommended. But, is it still beneficial to install a vapour barrier under the subfloor panels? Or would the vapour barrier defeat the purpose of the airflow feature?

It seems to make sense to me that the "Air Plus" version should not have vapor barrier under the panels, but the insulated version could benefit from having a vapour barrier.
What do you think?

PS my friend suggested I do a "moisture test" by placing a 2'x2' piece of clear plastic over the concrete floor, keep the edges down with tape or object, and wait a couple of days to see how much moisture appears. But I wonder whether this test is realistic - moisture gathers when cold meets warm, but since my concrete floor has no finishing products installed yet, it'd be cold consistently...
I'll attach a couple of pics, of the test, and one of the ceiling joists and stud extension work in progress...
On the whole I'm pretty happy with my new contractor, who appears to know how to do things right!
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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by A. Spruce » Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:59 am

Even in cool weather, if your slab has moisture it should collect under the plastic, since the ambient air is warmer than the slab.

It is quite likely that the underlayment products you're considering act as a vapor barrier themselves, hence not needing an additional one. The manufacturer should have this info on their website. Be VERY careful of information you get off a big box website, especially if it is coming from the consumer.
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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Shannon » Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:30 pm

I would not use a vapour barrier under either product. Once installed they will be fine.

Hey project looks like it’s finally moving along without many glitches like it had before. You have found a competent guy now?
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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Vivian » Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:41 pm

You're right, guys! I emailed "Barricade" and they said do not use vapour barrier with their two subfloor products.

Yes, my studio project is finally moving along, and I do believe my current contractor is competent and doing things right. He said he used to supervisor construction crews of 30+. Today he finished the stud extensions and began installing the Rockwool...

I've been busy reorganizing space for storing materials waiting to be installed, and keeping them dry - a little challenging! Rainy season seems upon us...
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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by A. Spruce » Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:52 pm

Glad that you've finally found competent help, makes all the difference between an enjoyable project and a nightmare.
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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Vivian » Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:49 pm

Well, I'm still not quite relaxing and enjoying the process of this project. Still keeping an eye on things to make sure everything is done right, and all the installations done wrong are correctly remedied. This studio reno has now become over-budget by approx $2500 and I haven't paid for the metal roofing yet!

Today approx half of the poly got installed, but it looks very different from your video (Shannon) on 'How to install vapor barrier". The accoustical sealant doesn't appear applied on the horizontal edges of the stud plates - top and bottom edges - as it appears he taped the upper edges with tuck tape. Please see pics. And, on one of the walls the poly does not fully drape down to the ground; the poly reaches the level of the tar paper that's tucked under the stud sill. Should I be concerned? How is the poly and tar paper supposed to be layered?

I guess that there are different ways to install vapour barrier? Is the way my vapour barrier is installed also acceptable and effective? I guess what is important is to make sure all seams are sealed air-tight? If not air tight, I guess that the rockwool fibres could infiltrate through the pine-panel walls into airspace inside my studio (?) If this were to happen, it would be detrimental to my asthma...
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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Vivian » Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:04 pm

Btw in the first pic (poly 5) on the window sill is the front gable vent - 12" square made in cedar - cost me $77 but now I wonder if rain will get through into the wide vents into the attic space...
Would this plastic one be better?
https://www.lowes.ca/louvers-gable-vent ... ation-vent
There is also the issue of mice - contractor said he'll add a metal screen to the backing of the vent.
The vent will be positioned above the front overhang lean roof, so now I wonder if rain may be also an issue, having read another post at this forum on how to keep rain out of gable vents...

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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by A. Spruce » Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:29 pm

It would seem that manufacturers have opted for form OVER function. :roll:

I would recommend something more along the lines of this
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000FHDF2S/
The shape of the louver helps create a barrier to wind blown rain, as opposed to simply having an angled slat. It's hard to tell by the pic (see link), but the louvers are sort of Z shaped and have a vertical section inside, making it harder for water to enter. All venting should have 1/4" or smaller screen on the inside to keep bugs and critters out. If your chosen vent does not have these features, look for something that does.

Stapling some screen behind a vent doesn't work, birds and critters will just yank it out of the way and go in anyway. In the one linked above, the screen is welded to the vent, making it much more difficult for critters to destroy and enter.
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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Shannon » Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:06 pm

The poly looks fine except for the bottom of the wall. That can not be sealed properly to tar paper. The vapour barrier should be sealed with accoustical caulk to the bottom plate. The tape at top is fine because he is taping poly to poly. Also the polynshould get sealed around the windows or framing of windows are sealed with foam.

That gable vent would look nicer with your shed but is not really a functional gable vent as you figured. Spruces vent suggestion is a good choice IMO.
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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Vivian » Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:23 pm

Thanks Spruce! I managed to find the same one you recommended, in 12"x12" at Canadian Amazon site:
https://www.amazon.ca/Construction-Meta ... ble+louver
Contractor told me the vent needs to be no bigger than 12x12" due to limited clearance between gable angle and header for the lean-to front roof. I'll return the cedar vent and get this one, for both front and back : )

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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Vivian » Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:27 pm

Shannon wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:06 pm
The poly looks fine except for the bottom of the wall. That can not be sealed properly to tar paper. The vapour barrier should be sealed with accoustical caulk to the bottom plate. The tape at top is fine because he is taping poly to poly. Also the polynshould get sealed around the windows or framing of windows are sealed with foam.
Thanks for your advice, Shannon! I guess the vapour barrier on the one wall that doesn't drape all the way down to the bottom plate could be patched? Can't think of any other way to remedy the short piece of poly...

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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Shannon » Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:35 am

Yes tape the top of the patch to the already hanging piece and seal bottom to plate with accoustical.
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