Replacing Bay Window

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kurt333
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:14 pm

Fiberglass doors would have the same or better R value as steel? Or the same R value.

Hey if I was to put a storm door on, would I have to get the same size as door put in?

So I would use wood screws to mount the door jamb frame into the rough opening?
I see some guys use nails in a nail gun, I dont have that. Ive seen other videos where the guys use the screws to adjust the door for level and reveal. I think I know what to do. I will set the hinge side first, im going to remove the door from hinges then put it on after I got hinge side set. Seems to be lots of different ways to set a door up.

kurt333
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:04 pm

So yea I need a new door, I tried installing my old one, and theres just to much wrong with it.
So its either fiberglass door, or the jeldwen steel door, both look really good, both are 2x6 framed.
Or I can get a 2x6 framed door from HD at the next town over, its less money and a masonite. I actually think it comes with out the brick mold, so it would come to the same price as the jeldwen, which has the brick mold on it already. One thing with my old steel door, it has warped in spots, and rusted on bottom.
When I run the new 2x6 framed door, do I run it flush to the outside of the osb on outside wall? And make sure the sill hangs over enough, say 1.5 inches hang over?
Or make it flush to the drywall on inside wall?
I wonder if I could just leave the fiberglass door white un painted. They say you can stain them, I wonder how that would look, with that gel stain.

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:24 pm

I would suspect the doors are the same r value but check specs.
Yes storm door will be sold to fit the size of door you have.
I use screws behind weather strip to mount frames. Attach hinge side first as you stated.
Your door should have either brick mould or nail gun and it mounts to the exterior of wall. If there is a difference inside you can deal with that when casing the door.
Manufacture will have details condemning the door finish
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kurt333
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:52 pm

Thanks.
Just need to decide if to go fiberglass door or steel. I may go for good old steely as its strong and may have same insulation r rating etc. I guess it just transfers the cold and heat more, steel door can warp, and rust. Fiberglass wont warp or rust.
They say the R value is a bit more with fiberglass doors.
Its hard to get any info on R value for the two doors, but really how can one be more than another, if they are the same thickness.
Im just goona prep the door area, maybe run a tin flashing under the door sill over top of the tar paper. I dont want the water dripping under and sitting on top of the tar paper, if it will even do that.

I wonder if its ok to spray foam under the door sill, or only from the inside.

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:55 pm

You can foam under the sill if its accessible. Most times you really can't get down there cause the doors are low to the step outside which makes it impossible to see what you're doing. Use low expanding foam and don't get carried away or you could heave it in the centre a little.
I have seen fibreglass doors that are not completely straight but you are right they should never rust! LOL.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:35 pm

Thanks man. Yea I know, not much room under there, leave some room for water run off if I do seal it under the sill from outside. And seal it good from inside. Spray foam if I can, Yea I know low expanding, Im all over it.

I need to go buy some sealant to install the door too, i may just use some of that acrylic sealant or whatever it is you use in your videos. I will set the door in some lines of sealant run.

Im just working out details, snails pace.
Jeldwen steel door or Masonite steely?
Or aliance fiber glass door, i dont think thats really the brand.

I wanna get that trim around windows and door done. May pull the outside corner trim off.
I wonder if it matters if I run the siding exactly the same height as the siding on the sides of house? Hope wont look funny, Probably not even noticeable if different height, but I will try to run it same level plain as the other side stuff. Just I want to run it continuous under the door area. It was that foundations that caused problems before. I cut it away so good to go, can run right by it now in the trough. Wont osb for that section where trough is. Anyhow.
Its completely useless trying to find out r value of a fiberglass door, no one knows, or answers phone or calls back. haha. clowns.

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:21 pm

Ok thanks.
The galvanized roofing nails are working awesome for mounting the trim and foam board. When I need to pull them out to fix something, I just use a pc of plywood and nail puller on a sharp angle and doesnt damage the foam to much...
Dont even really need that washer behind the nail for installing the foam board, more of a nuisance to nail it in with washer, nail goes more sideways it seems.
And the nails I like, because I can nail the nail on the side, so it gets the j trim tight against the window frame with no gap, it pushes the nail and trim tighter against the window frame.
It is a bit of trick to install the j trim around windows just right, cut it to short and not so good...

Not sure if you covered it in your videos, but should the vinyl j trim always be sealed on sides and bottom to the window frame? I under stand there is two different ways to caulk the j trims around doors and windows etc. Blind, so it is hidden behind and you wont see it. Or showing on outside. Like I will do. All my windows j trims were done like that. Probably Quad is the best for this? Quad max maybe?

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:33 pm

I seal all my windows and openings before siding but if you wanna seal the j the use the hidden method. Does not matter what caulking or silicone you use if it’s exposed it will generally look dirty most of the time. Quad will work fine.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:57 pm

Im not sure what you mean you seal all windows and openings?
Do you mean I dont have to seal the j trim to the window? Is there any point in doing so? Does it keep water from getting in there or past anthing?
I just noticed it was done on all my windows installed.

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:17 pm

All my windows are either sealed to wood sheathing or flashed with membrane and sealed . If that is what you have done you will be fine. If you have not or you live in a high rainfall area then sealing the J would be a good idea and it is an extra layer of protection.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:54 pm

Yea then it sounds like I dont need to seal the j trims, because I sealed my windows to the tar paper, and flashed it all with tar paper around windows and door. But yea there is high rain fall here.

kurt333
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:42 pm

Hey do you have a preference for door brands?
What do you think of masonite doors? vs.
Jeldwen doors? Same thing?
Have you put in many fiberglass ones?

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:36 pm

IMO most door brands are about the same quality when comparing apples to apples.
I have installed very few fibreglass doors ,likely less than 6.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:32 pm

Thanks, I wonder why, I guess big stores mostly stock and sell steel doors.
I went and checked doors that are more custom and bit more expensive, they build the frames in store, and order the doors, almost all fiberglass doors they sell, he said there only 20 bucks more or so than the steel ones, they order. There sill they use was interesting, different than the conventional, it had a seal on the bottom of sill that sits in groove, like the sides and top groove seal, same seal. The sill door takes no sweep. It has this seal on teh sill, and the door pushes against it. Then any water that gets past seal, goes into some drain holes in the trough of this sill, and towards outside. A different way of sealing the bottom of the door I guess, thats how they sell I think all there custom framed doors. Then there is no sweep to fail or leaking air from sweep. Seems a good design. Have you seen that before?
And they have option of composite frames and its composite in the doors too. So no wood in door or frame jamb.
Hardware store fiberglass door is 350, or 330 for jeldwen steel with brick mold trim.
The custom FG doors with composite would be 580, and 500 without composite. So yea getting up there. Its a two panel too, so different look. In all honesty, i dont care really, just a steel would be nice and big improvement over what I had, as long as the sweep and everything is a good seal and no air leaks or gaps.
I wonder if I should run that door sill pan, the metal flashing piece they sell, to go under door sill.

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:15 am

I have not seen those thresholds. I wonder how many times you change that bottom seal from walking on it or catching stuff on it?
I have yet to see a door seal perfectly at the bottom using a sweep.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:02 am

Good call.
The seal on the threshhold sits below surface where you would step, sits in the trough and groove, but ya maybe it would still get stepped on, not sure how that would work out.
They had a velvet type sweep replacement that looked decent too, maybe nice than the rubber ones that rip.

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:17 am

I think I seen one of these thresholds yesterday . I don’t have a good enough signal to upload it but I’ll try to later
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:13 pm

Oh yea, wonder where they would sell it, seems custom, that thresh hold piece. I should have got pics of it too. They sold trim line doors there, seemed decent or nice looking, two panel and other designs than the six panel. I may go scoop that hh fg door if its still there, hope so, i been stalling. Just trying to decide what height to install my starter strips. I sort of ran the osb and plywood up higher, out of the groove on concrete foundation, so maybe I should get 1 inch minimum of bite on the osb with the nails? Or something like that, then set my height so it hangs down past the osb and foam a bit, it may hang past that a inch or two...
I may end up with quite a few short pcs of vinyl siding to get this wall done, oh well, it may not be ideal? but will get it covered? If I want a match of this siding, it will be custom order from hh.

Hey off topic questions. Is it safe and ok to dump down boiling hot water from stove, right down in the sink right away when its super hot, for like draining pasta?
I usually run some hot water while I do this. I always wondered if its bad for the plastic pipes abs.

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:28 am

I generally would not hang the starter strip down more then an inch from bottom of wall sheathing but as long as you get it nailed into plywood you are ok I guess.

Boiling water is fine in pvc and or abs pipes
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:48 am

Sounds good, thats right around where you would want it. Little tricky getting my start strip where I wanted as I had to compromise, the wall was a bit lower on one side than the other, but this should work out, Used a string line pulled real tight to find the level and two stakes. Used that little stanley bubble aluminum line level on the string, and also used a level to check it.

I found out whats going on with that different sill that they put on, I got some pics of it, its to meet the NAFS requirments of a new house build or if you have to get a permit for the job and inspected, NAFS certified doors will only pass. It is some sort of wind and rain test on the doors, air leakage, it sounds like its mainly in the sill that they have that special design for a better seal I guess. Maybe only this design passed the NAFS tests, sounds like they had tried other versions before, that werent as good, and the sweep is the older design. The hardware stores carry in stock non Nafs certified doors, cheaper I guess. Some of these custom door places are not that much more though really. I found one place in next town over for nafs door for 400$ with wood frame, fiber glass, and I think it has that special sill. Just a few weeks wait to order it and build. This apparently is across canada the nafs doors needed for new builds. Looks like the put a gasket between the frame joints. The custom door place used a special wider seal on latch side that extends out a bit further to take up that gap or clearance that is sometimes between the frame and door. So sounds like they got all the bases covered and put some care into these pre hung doors built.

The hardware store doors all have some sort of sweep, i notice they have a smaller gap now between sweep and sill, maybe 1/4 inch, I think only the velvet sweeps will work for replacement. Those rubber ones look like they are to bulky and would not fit i think and would rip. I kind of question what will happen when i need a replacement for the hardware store sweep, as it is such a small gap and flush, so not sure if they sell a replacment in store, or if the velvet ones only fit.

So yea got to either get custom door ordered for 400, or 350 for hardware store fg door instock with sweep, looks decent too. Just done really want to wait another couple weeks for a door to arrive.

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:05 pm

Im goona get the nafs rated door, I found it for better price at near by town, called around. twenty bucks more than the HH door, fg on nafs. Prob good to, just the other one has the sill with weather strip to seal it. I can show pics. I think there all the same in canada maybe hey.

Hey I may be sort of splitting hairs here again. But i notice the chalk line for starter strip, or pulling the string line tight, still sags in middle and is not level in middle and stuff and on other side.
Is there a trick to snapping a level chalk line over a 26 ft run?
I may try a laser level now. Then if not, can try string again and maybe put a nail at mid point to level.

So its ok to nail everything tight , even the starter strip and corners and j trim etc. But just not the actual siding?
Is there a point in leaving the j trims loose and starter strip?

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:54 am

26' is a pretty long run to get completely straight but if pulled tight it would not be out more than 3/16" (my guess). You could just use the laser if you have one.
Do not nail corners or siding tight everything else is fine tight. Aside corners should have two nails in the very top slot.One right to the top and one right to the bottom of the slot. these nails will keep the corner from sliding down and also keep it from pushing up into the soffit above. All the movement will be from there down.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:31 pm

Thanks, I will try again and put the line level in the middle of the string. Could always do two runs, one just to the ball park then, so 13 and 13 ft.
With my house, front door, no window in door, just six panel or two panel, four looks good too.
What do you think would suit my house? Classic six panel door? Apparently the two panel is the modern or new look some use, but maybe looks real basic plain? Maybe six panel never goes out of date, timeless classic?
You probably install mostly 6 panel ?

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:36 am

Six panel looks good in this age of home and in any home IMO.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:40 pm

Thanks. Six panel sounds good, bit going on with this one hes got for me, bit of trim lines...
Wheres your flat brimmed hat?

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:22 pm

Hey when I cut vinyl siding panels ends, can I just use the weiss scissors or snips? Or should I use my chop saw to get it cut straight?

Would you say for my starter strip, its best to install it horizontal, and not perpindicular to the soffits?
Some say to install it horizontal level to the soffits. But my house slopes down in one corner. I know its installed already level horizontally. But just wondering.
I will have to make up some difference maybe on my top run of siding that touches the soffits.

Is there any point in running my level on the siding as I work my way up?

And what is some peoples reasoning behind not nailing trims all the way? Do they think they will warp too and push out? Or go wavey? I noticed my used starter strip is a bit wavy maybe from age, like not that part it clips into, but the nailing fin part, but that wont make a difference I guess...

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:40 pm

Aviation snips work just fine. Use a square to mark a straight line and follow it .

That is a bit of a judgement call. How much lower is the one corner? And are the soffits actually close to parallel to the rest of the sill plates ?

After you determine if you are running parallel to the soffit or parallel to the sill plates I will either snap a couple lines to use further up the wall or just measure up from the bottom course in a few spots along every 3 row or so. Using a level is not always correct unless of course you actually started level.and even then you better with a laser or snapped line across the entire wall.

Most companies suggest to leave even their trim nailed loose. I go against that , from my experience nailing J, drip cap , under sill and starter tight IMO works better to keep things straight and looking better over time ,on these small pieces nailing tight has not ever caused an issue . The exception to my rule is corner trim. These need to move.Nail them as I described earlier in a previous post here.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:48 pm

Hey thanks, Yea it slopes pretty good, so yea that is the only thing I could do is run it horizontal level. I think left side is level and right side slopes down, so it just wouldnt work.
I just fixed the left corner post and ran the tar paper around the side.
Took off 18" by 8 foot section of vinyl siding, took cedar siding off underneath it, and put a layer of osb on and tar papered and starting to side it.
If I measure, 18" between the J trims, do I then subtract 1/4 inch on both end to make the total of the siding needed 17.5 " ?
On the outside corner post, I used a square to square the post and a level too for vertical level. I put the top nail in at the top of its slot and the rest of the nails in the middle. It can be moved upwards with quite a bit of effort, you have to grab it pretty good to move it upwards. I think the foam board and all, is making it tighter and that I squared and leveled it in the slots maybe...

I like the way this is looking and working out. Got the door ordered on the way.
I question a few things about running long runs of siding.
I dont want to run a long pc of siding, the exact same length on top of it for the next row?
It should always be about 3 feet away and stagger effect? But the next one up above could end in the same spot as the first starter?

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:39 pm

Yes so that piece that will fit into two J s can be 17.5"

Yes stagger your joints. I like 36" staggers if it works ok for your wall. Generally every third row would be the same.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:51 pm

Ok thanks.
Whats your opinion or feedback on Vinyl vs. Tin Gutters and down spouts?
I may eventualy replace my coroded brown down spouts pipes. I was thinking vinyl would be good, as it wont dent and rust.
I have heard the vinyl gutters maybe sag in the middle?

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