Replacing Bay Window

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kurt333
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:55 am

Hey what mud is best for this job?
Pails of it, bag powder, bag box? The less dust stuff? Or just standard mud? Or light weight?

Is it ok to join two pcs of drywall, that go vertical, with no wood backing behind them and use tape? Would that still hold up, or would it get broken and flex and crack?
Or does it at least have to always have a vertical stud behind it to join them together?

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:53 am

I would just buy lite all-purpose mud. If you have no pails to mix in then you might as well buy at least one pail to start with, after that bag/boxes are generally cheaper and you can re use the pail. I cant remember how much you have to do?
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Thu Nov 28, 2019 4:39 pm

Hey thanks.
Its about 320 sq ft of walls im doing, and minus the windows spaces. So not much then.
So buy all purpose in the pails maybe, big pails. I can go read how much it does on the pail and boxes.
I think you said the dust free stuff doesnt work?

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:14 pm

I doubt it will say anything about how much it will do. A 17l Paul will be a bit much for what you are doing but it’s better mud so I would go that way anyways.

I tried the dust free stuff a couple times on small jobs but was not impressed with how it sanded. It was better for being less dusty but the sanding was not as easy.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:18 pm

I see. So maybe get a 17L pail of all purpose. Last time I went with quite a bit of smaller pails of cheaper stuff at home hardware, there in house brand, cant remmber what its called. And that small quick set stuff 90 or whatever it was. It was mainly good for getthing through the taping stages quick. But was tough to sand too.

So maybe dont bother with any quick set mud? hard to sand? They sell some bags at HD.

Hey is 1/4 inch gap between but joints to much on studs in some spots?

And another spot, i ran the sheet over the window in one pc, actually all the windows, but one spot the pc ripped off, the weak post part. So I scabbed it together, screwed it on there. And can tape the ripped part?

And in another little 4 inch section I had to add on a section where it does not touch a stud on the end of this 4 inch section but not far away it does touch stud and window frame. Do you think just to tape that little section would be strong enough? Should not cause problems. I can maybe show pics of what I mean.

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:00 am

If you use hot mud use it only for taping and finish it nice cause you don't wanna sand it as you found out before , then you can top coat it with all purpose. If you liked the cheap mud in small pails go for it. You can use the hot mud to refill gaps like the one that is 1/4" wide before you tape.

Where you broke the drywall leg off cut off any loose paper and be sure to tape that area.

I think I need a picture of the 4" section please.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:51 pm

Thanks,
They sell large bags of hot mud, may not need that much. Maybe small bag of it, it does set up fast,

Indent any burs flared out paper at but joints? Or cut bevel

I had a few screws pop right through to far.

So sounds like break away any loose broken corner pcs of drywall and any loose paper, cut it off?

On my 1/4 gap at butt joint on stud, its either i have 1/4 gap at butt joint on stud or bigger gap at wall corner? I can move it over either way...

so quarter inch gap should not show up as a crinkle in tape in finished product?

In one pic, u can see i did not have a stud to mount screws to that 4 inch section of vertical drywall pc.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:20 pm

Hey again, for inside corners, do I just tape them?
Or buy actual reinforced inside corners, if they even sell them?
Any point to buying them if they sell them?
I know the outside corners turn out perfect.

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:23 am

You really should try and have all butt joints fall on a stud for better support, the ones you have may be alright cause they are really short, but next time get em on a stud.

yes if your butts are protruding , run the end of a drywall knife handle down them to indent slightly. Get rid of any loose paper. profile any gaps and broken edge areas 1/4" and larger. Don't really matter where just fill it flat with hot mud.It will be fine even if it shrinks a bit ,once you tape and finish it will look good.


I don't know anyone who uses the metal /paper inside corners, I just paper tape them. If you had a bad gap I guess maybe you could use them then.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:49 pm

Thanks, filled all gaps and nail holes in with sheet rock 90 quickset. According to this guy, its the right way only way to fill in the gaps, or you will be waiting weeks for it to dry, if 1/4 inch or bigger, and the corners will for sure bubble if you dont use 90 quickset. So good thing I did, I guess its handy to have a little bag of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVsLKprFsHI

And about the inside corners paper metal type, I have never seen it done either. I may just stick to the paper method like you use. I notice you have a new video on there now. It looks like you do one side at a time for paper inside corners, like you and spruce said to do. I may try that. I remember it was so tricky doing inside corners and I would use a inside corner trowel and ended up swiping it like 20-30 times to get it right.

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:19 am

Yes I do my insides like the most recent video.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:46 am

Thanks.
Hey I have done all my inside corners with tape.
But what I notice, was I did have some gaps, but didnt fully fill in gaps on inside corners, I taped over it. But I notice when I run my hand over the tape on first bedding coat. The pitch goes high when run my hand over it in areas. So I know there is air bubles where the pitch goes high.
Im guessing this is not good. I cut away one area, but there is just so many air bubbles. I ended up ripping one tape inside corner right off, it had so many bubbles.

Why is the caused? Not enough mud behind it, or to thin or thick mud? I thinned the mud down pretty good like you said to.

If I leave these air bubble and mud over them, and paint over. What will happen? flex? crack?

There is the odd horizontal bevel tape that has air bubble I can hear, and rarer to find air bubble on verticals. If any. Maybe because there was no where for there to be an air bubble on the verticals, horizontals, i did not pre fill any gaps and i left 1/8 gaps on all. Wonder if maybe when I did my taping beding coat and the mud maybe found its way in the gaps and then created a air bubble as I lost all that mud... And same with corners maybe i did not use enough mud filler prior or at the time of bedding coat. This may be a problem...
Im thinking of ripping all the inside corners off or a few and just going metal/paper..?

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:58 am

Just like I mentioned you wanna pre fill any cracks and gabs that are bigger than 1/8" before you tape over them. And any others you want to be sure they are full of mud when you apply the mud bed for taping.
If you have dry tape (air pockets) the tape did not bond to the mud because either it was not embedded well enough or the mud was too dry and the tape never stuck to the mud. These are all problems and will show as you add mud over the tape and when you paint. You need to cut the dry tapes off . If they are not right in the corner joint you likely can just fill the voids without taping , if they are in the corner crack you need to retape.
Prefilling mud can be thick but taping mud needs to be pretty thin (wetter), if its too dry the dry paper tape sucks out to much moisture and they do not stick together. The dry tapes can happen on any joint where you use it.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlecghGvizY
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:47 pm

Thanks.
I ended up pulling all corners off and re doing. All my air bubbles which were not really air bubble but air gaps behind the very corner of the taped corners...
I could hear a slight high pitch sound when running hand or fingers over the insider taped corners. Some more than other, some I could push on it and see it flex slightly. So I was able to pull them off, some didnt really need re doing as the air gap was so slight. Others the air gap was bigger. What happened was, the mud keeps falling in the gap, as its a deep gap in the corner that goes into the wall. So I used quick set mud on it again and completely filled it in, not really filling the whole gap, as its so deep a few corners, but making a backing for it to fill in. That way I was sure to have no air bubble or high pitched sound. Seems good now. I did thin the mud down like you said. Seems to work good.
Can I confirm some steps, and you can let me know if its wrong or any corrections?
0. Thin bedding mud down to a sour cream conistency with water.
1. Fill in all gaps 1/8 and bigger with quick set mud.
2. Tape corners with paper, bed coat of 1/8 inch, two or three swipes to seat each corner in place, firm pressure or medium pressure to set it in place.
3. Coat over one side of the corner joint with a 5" knife
4. Forgot to say, to mud and bed coat all the horizontals and verticals too.
5. The mud coats of the corner over the tape and all coats after this , can be consistency of mud right out of the pail? Or thinned out slightly? I thinned mine a bit to get it to flow a bit better.
6. Mud skim coat over tapered horizontals, with 5" knife. Swipe over to fill in the tapered gap.
7. Coat over the butt joints verticals with 5" knife, tapering out 4 or 5 inch on the sides and one slight coat over the middle.
This is where Im at right now. Next go to bigger knifes? 10 inch or so and keep tapering out? the tapered edges maybe another coat with 10 inch blade and done?
And but joints a few more coats with curved knife, 10 inch either side kind of thing?

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:28 am

Yes those steps will work. The profiling is done before anything though so it can dry and you can use hot mud for that. I use sour cream constancy for all coats after taping and even wetter for taping, Guess it depends on your local sour cream ;) . I also use the curved trowel on the first coat of mud on Butt joints then use a larger trowel to feather mud out 24-30 across butt after on next coats.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:01 am

Thanks yea I may have got my order list a bit messed up above.
I meant to use quick set mud for filling in gaps first with a thicker mud.

What did you mean by profiling?

So to get sour cream consistency you are watering down all the mud from the pail or pre mixed bags?
And for taping you are watering down even more?

Consistency of mayonaise maybe?
Sour cream can be thick yea but then goes watery I guess. Tough one, tough comparison, but get the idea.
I see you move shack the tray around to see how thin the mud is, that works. Or how fast it falls off the knife, can kind of tell and get a feel for it.

My mud in the corners is taking a real long time to dry, I cant get to the second side of the corner yet, because Im waiting for the one side to dry, its a been a few days.
I think maybe I should use sheet rock 90 quick set mud for all my first stages coats maybe hey? But thats alot of mixing and it sets up quick...
I notice they sell bigger bags of it.. Would almost prefer to do that to get through the stages quicker, than waiting around now. Is this why drywallers are using this mud maybe?

Ive got light heat on in the rooms, and one i use heat with fan, its not so hot in there, and maybe that is the problem.

And yea I have seen all those drywall videos, but will review them again, it takes some brushing up on this info if I have not done this to many times.
Really well done and straight to the point videos, no un needed info. Thanks. My go to videos for all home reno info.
I kind of remember how you did the butt joints, you fanned it out to 24 total, I will check em out again. Total 3 or 4 coats?
All my drywall mud in the horizontals and verticals is drying fast. and ready to keep moving on. Just corners are slow.

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:42 am

Sorry that should have been "pre filling" the gaps and spaces.

Yes I mix all my mud to the sour cream consistency and if i don't need a whole pail of taping mud I just add a little more water to the mud when I put it in my mud pan for taping and mix it in with a 3" -4" knife as I need. Comparison to something I'm not sure really but it will be a little more thin. It does not take much water when mixing the small amounts in your pan. maybe another table spoon or so of water to a half pan of mud? Somewhere in there. You don't want it so thin that it won't stay on the life well and is running too watery.

Hmmm A few days seems extreme for drying . Usually I use a fan over night oscillating in the room and can mud other side usually 24hrs later.If you did not let any pre filling in the corners dry good or taping before applying mud over one side of tape then it will take a while. You can run an electric heater also if the room temp is not very high, you want at least 18C but not over 30c or the mud will dry too quick and shrink and crack .

I actually never use hot mud and if I was going to it would just be for pre filling. I have had guys say they use it for taping but I have never done that either. Well maybe on a real small rush job or patch job. The pros use it cause they want to speed up the process when it makes sense to do so.

Your inside corners will only take one coat each corner so if they are a little behind the other joints you will be fine ,most other joints I do 3-4 coats. The coats on other areas are generally much thinner so they dry much easier and quick. Corners are a little thicker ,maybe 1/8" - 3/16" right in corner and taper out to nothing on the very outer edges so it takes more time.

Patience is involved with mudding especially when you don't do it often. I don't do it as often as I used to and it takes me a bit to get back in the groove when I do.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:59 pm

Ok thanks, got it pretty good. Looking good.

So do I never want any tape to show in corners or field? Not even a tiny bit? It may show through when painted.

I swipe pretty hard and maybe to much in corners, I think maybe I had tape showing when it was wet, but less now that dry. I see on your one older video you go beyond 5 inch trowel in inside corners, but the new video you do 5 inch and done. Is 5 inch in inside corners good enough? Should I hide the tape and maybe do my corners one more time. Im doing one side at a time with pretty good results, nice and straight lines.

And so I have dont about inch trowel on tapered joints. And I should go to about 10 inch on tapered?
And 24-30 in butt joints?
And 5 to 10 inch on inside corners and outside maybe 12 inch or as much as needed?

And I can see from your videos the consistency of the mud, and get a feel for it by doing this.
I added some quick set mud a few spoon fulls to my pan of all purpose mud, to get it drying faster, and I think it works. Maybe not worth doing, not sure, just an experiment. Thought it may speed up the drying time. Im ready for 4th coat on butt joints and maybe go a bit wider on taper joints, I may have gone a bit thick on taper joints on edges, I am really trying to not have to sand much. I may have gone to thick on some of the screw holes too. But not bad. I could probably sand it as is right now and it would look super good painted. Inside corners maybe I will give another coat.

So I need to prime this drywall? and paint it with just a normal paint, paint that doesnt nesesarily have the primer added to it.

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:20 am

Generally if tape shows through it will be noticeable when finished.

The inside corner videos are two different ways. The older one is with a corner trowel and I found I needed an extra feathering pass with that. You need to hide the tape though with either way.

Basically you go to as wide as you need to make them appear as flat as possible. And that will depend on your coverage really and how flat you want them. I do Approx 5" on insides, 20-24 on tapered, 24-30 on butts, 12-14 on outsides.

Im not sure I would add the hot mud to the all-purpose, whatever ,I guess if it worked but you will need to mix it well to be consistent . Once i'm taped and main fill coat done I can usually do two coats a day. these are thin coats and they dry much faster.

If you wanna prime go for it, you can then use any interior paint over that. If you prime and see problem areas in the mud , fix and sand them before continuing.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:00 pm

Thanks, sounds good.
I am sanding now.
I put a large 22 inch powerful fan in one window in the room then opened the other window in the room. Do you think that would be the best way of getting the dust to flow out or some of it?
Or close the other window? I know when I opened the second window, it created a cross flow air flow. But not so sure what happened when I left the second window closed, seemed less effective.
It seems to have worked, but still lots of dust in the room objects, but maybe less floating in the air for long. I had three smallish piles when done sanding. But there is dust on everything else. Maybe should have put the thin poly over everything.

About sanding, I have heard, that you should only need two light scuff passes with sand paper and done. But this is not reality for me. I saw areas that I needed to form and smooth out.
My first sanding was with the flat board drywall hand sander, with mesh 150 grit. I could see it putting scratches in the mud and its pretty aggressive. So then second grit was with the rectangle foam sponge abrasive pad style ones, that you buy in a package, and it has course grit on one side and fine on the other side. I finished it with the fine grit and it seems to be smoothed out good. It worked well for the corners.

Do you think that should be enough?
Any recomendations on grits to use?

Or maybe I am sanding it to much. I dont know. I used 3, 7kg pails of that in house home hdware store mud, I wish I would have just bought the all purpose big box of certainteed or whatever stuff. Maybe its more workable?

I dont know if ive watched any of your videos on sanding if you have any.
But do you sand the paper too?
And always prime the new drywall? I have the apv primer, for bare drywall.

I noticed when swiping, large areas, with the 12 inch trowel, with a thin coat, it would dry so fast, or maybe I needed the mud thinner. And I did this whole job out of a tray. Maybe the hawk works better, I tried it once and just didnt want to waste through my mud, I was kind of being to careful, as I kept running out of pails of mud. So maybe the big box would have been better and a hawk.
Every time I would swipe say with 12 inch trowel and wipe it back off into the tray, it would sort of dry, or start setting up, it is tricky. Or with tray, if you pick up any sort of dried bit, and it gets in the mud, your in trouble.

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:48 am

Do what ever works for venting the dust. Wind direction may have you put the fan in the other window also? Whatever works.
Yes if there is furniture and such I would have covered it but too late now.

I use a sponge like you described and a super fine grit paper on a flat pad hand sander and or pole sander. Not even sure what the grit is? Likely 200 -300 grit. Now I have a little more experience and my finish coats are really smooth to start with so you may need to go over things with a courser grit to start with to get things started . I'm not a fan of the mesh sanding stuff, but it works. Usually more sanding after to get the marks left behind out. If you sand using a bright light that you can shine across the wall as you go you will pretty much see as you go if you are good. It will show imperfections and ridges. Otherwise you will see anything you missed usually when you prime or first coat of paint. Try to get everything fixed before final coat that you missed.

Do not sand the paper anymore than you may have to around edges and screw marks. The surface gets fuzzy. I have a video or two with sanding.

Yup gotta have the mud wet enough but also when you play with it too much you dry it out. Keeping the little bits of dried mud out of your pan and clean mud is very important to an easier time. In my videos I talk about using a 6 inch knife to go around before I do my next coat and knock off any little bits and tips that are on the wall s to prevent this. It all comes with practice and you will never get everything right on your first project.

Many guys use a knives and tray for everything and many use trowels and hawk for everything. I use a combination of both , its whatever you like IMO.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Mon Dec 16, 2019 7:18 pm

Hey thanks.
I am priming now, but I bought the pva glidden primer the cheapest one I could find at hd, it doesnt seem to cover very well, i can see that it would need many coats.
Is this normal that it wont cover say drywall letters and mud very well on the first coat? or
Should it be hiding the letters and mud and screw holes mud pretty good on the first coat?
Im thinking i may try a different product,
They had kills drywall primer, and one up from the glidden one i bought that costed a bit more, then bear has primer for a bit more too.

I can see I must have still put on mud to thick or it dried to quick or something or i did not thin it out enough, as I had to sand way to much, according to what they say. But all looks good. I will prime and do a prime check after that and fix all imperfections.

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:56 pm

The key here is you purchased the cheapest product on the shelf and expected near perfect coverage.

In reality it does not need to cover everything, give it two coats and you should be fine.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:15 am

Yea true, it probably would have been fine, as now it has dried it seems to have covered a bit better, seemed kind of watery though. I just used a bit with the brush cutting in.
But oh well yea I took it back, they treated me good and gave me the bear for the same price.

I see some guys just use 150 grit for all sanding.
Do I sand even the finish top coats too.?
The trouble light works really good, i can really see the imperfection then.
All in all it looks pretty good, I would have done things differently a bit if I did it again. Like thinner coats, so I wouldnt have had to sand it so much, yea feathered it out a bit better. Its tricky business.
Once this primer is on, I think it will really show me alot more whats going on... Then I can fill in imperfections with quick set.

About venting the room with a fan, I am undecided if I should have openend the room door a bit to create the negative pressure, or if I should have opened the second window.
In this case, I cranked open the second window and closed my bedroom door, You could really feel the cross draft. Im not sure if that is the proper negative pressure or if you want that negative coming from the rest of your house to insure the dust does not go into the rest of your house?
This day there was not much wind, so I was good.

Thanks, Yes I used the 5 inch knife to knock off ridges, awesome tip there, in the corners too.
Yea the fine side of the foam sponge sanding rectangle pad seems to really smooth it good.
The mesh 150 seems a bit aggressive. seems to gouge a bit maybe.

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:50 am

I had a closer look at the sheets I purchase and they are intact 150 grit, I could have swore they were finer but i guess not. Don't use mesh sanding sheets unless you have a really rough area you want to flatten quickly, then use regular sanding sheets to finish it.

Yes thin coats are easier to work with for sure and you get smother results with less lumps.

If you touch up with quick set you will likely be disappointed , it sands more difficulty if you have minor imperfections that are small normal mud will dry likely in a couple hours anyways.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:27 pm

Thanks
I put one coat of the bear primer on, and there is still some show through, paper to where mud is you can see. Should I prime it again? So all is hidden? Im painting over with a off white, swiss coffee top coat.
So I should have two primer coats and two top coats? Sanding between all coats?

Good videos on painting and sanding, not sure if I had seen them before.
I wonder though in the video on painting.
When you do ceilings first. Do you prime the ceiling once or twice?
Then did you mean you would go over the ceiling with an actual ceiling paint, or you would prime the ceiling with white and just leave it at that? Was just curious.. As maybe primer is the same as ceiling paint...

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:08 am

Generally 1 coat is all you need. Most primers will not cover completely ,but they don't need to.

If I use a primer I prime once, paint twice.
With a flat ceiling I prime once and paint twice with ceiling paint.
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kurt333
Posts: 352
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 12:06 pm
Location: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada

Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Fri Dec 27, 2019 12:39 am

Ok done deal, primed two and filled all imperfections and top coated twice, looking good.
Now i need to trim the wimdow sill and and around.
For the window sill and sides ans top, i need varying widths around 5.5 inch, some smaller and wider.
Should i only use real wood for the sill and and sides and top? Not sure what the word is what its called.
Or can i use mdf for sides and top and wood for sill?
Or can i use finished 3/4 plywood?
Or does the ply show through at the reveal on the trim?
I may have to buy the pine sill pcs and rip it to widths i need.
I need all 3/4 thick pcs.

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Shannon
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:01 am

Any of those products would work IMO. MDF is not the best for the bottom jamb piece since moisture can be a problem with MDF. If you are just painting them you should be able to sand and paint the edge of the plywood well enough to hide the edge of the plys
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kurt333
Posts: 352
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 12:06 pm
Location: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada

Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:18 am

Thanks.
the 3/4 mdf casing and primed pine is actually around the same price, pine being a couple bucks more on lengths, so tgat makes pine a no brainer.
Unless maybe the 1/2 inch mdf os way cheaper and would work.
some of my gaps are tp big for half inch to work so would have to shim that with plywood to make it worknif i wanted to with half inch mdf.

plywood would have been the best price and getting them to rip the strips of widths i needed, they said they could at hd.

Does a window even need a reveal?
Could hide more of the plys on plywood with less or no reveal. And i wonder how it would look, youre right to sand the corner to round them off. Some of the plywood seems like the layers come off the ply laminate sonnot as suitable, others look better.
wonder if it would prime and paint well?
I ended up getting strapping for the two alum windows that i will change later anyways, so for now the strapping put together side by side to fill in, seems to look decent and work, actually the wood and grain is nice on some strapping if u choose careful, 1x4x8 were suitable.
i used a 1x6x8 strapping on one casing window and the wood was not so suitable as it bows on all pcs end wise the 5.5 inch part of the strapping. So when installed it creates a big gap on the joining pcs because the wood is bowed. So seemed better to use narrower strapping and together side by side to make different widths.
Then for the two vinyl windows ingot primed pine.

What do u usualy buy for casing windows?

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