Replacing Bay Window

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kurt333
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:42 pm

Removed all left siding, and old cedar siding down to ship lap, cut away a section all along 6 inches up from the floor plate to check all bottom plates to make sure its not rotten and replace where it is.
It looks like most rot is just under the door and going over to the sides a bit, maybe 4 to 6 feet total.
Do you guys recommend and procedure to fixing this? Im thinking I may bolt joists sections to the rotted ones.
Only a small section of bottom plate is holding the joists in a few sections, I wonder how it even holds the house up, or how its not sunken more, or if it has and I dont notice it?
Im gonna try and bottle jack under and do one section at a time.
I cut out the rotten plate.

I could remove all the ship lap and up grade insulation from while im outside the house, but then may not end up with a vapor barrier and thorough of a job. What do you guys think?

I might replace the front door, but then would have to move the header up, as this door is a 72 inch or 74, and they stock common sizes of 80 at hd etc. What do you cats think?

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by A. Spruce » Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:28 pm

kurt333 wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:42 pm
Do you guys recommend and procedure to fixing this? Im thinking I may bolt joists sections to the rotted ones.
The rot has to be removed or else it will continue to grow and infest anything it touches. You can cut and replace the bad portion of the joist, then sister a second joist to it to carry what the damaged joist no longer can.
kurt333 wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:42 pm
Only a small section of bottom plate is holding the joists in a few sections, I wonder how it even holds the house up, or how its not sunken more, or if it has and I dont notice it?
Im gonna try and bottle jack under and do one section at a time.
I cut out the rotten plate.
All the components of the house work in unison to hold it together, so yes, a section can be damaged without affecting the surrounding area. You might have a little sag in a joist or even in a plate that is damaged and you will likely have to jack the structure up a bit to install the new material. Just make sure you're using a substantial jack that can handle the load you're putting on it.
kurt333 wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:42 pm
I could remove all the ship lap and up grade insulation from while im outside the house, but then may not end up with a vapor barrier and thorough of a job. What do you guys think?
I don't have a lot of experience with vapor barriers or house wrap, but as long as your seams are taped/sealed appropriately, then doing the siding in sections isn't going to be a big deal.
kurt333 wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:42 pm
I might replace the front door, but then would have to move the header up, as this door is a 72 inch or 74, and they stock common sizes of 80 at hd etc. What do you cats think?
Yes, standard door heights are 80". I would be inclined to rework the header/framing, and, you could just as easily special order a custom height door. I would recommend going to a door and millwork shop and not a big box.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:06 am

You could upgrade the insulation from the exterior for sure. If there is a vapour barrier make repairs as needed using Tuck Tape or similar vapour barrier tape.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:18 pm

There is no vapor barrier, its that old paper backed insulation on both sides, that was the vapor barrier I guess built into the insulation. It sure could be done easier I think from the outside, now that Im at this point. But then I will end up with no vapor barrier, and 2x4 only insulation. Which is maybe enough? Not to code. I do have the foam board too on exterior R3.75.
I will be changing this window on the left too, the height will be less than it is, so will have to change drywall or add to it, and probably eventually going around the whole house doing all the windows.

To make a floor joist added onto the rotted ones, Are screws ok to use? Or bolts through better? Or nails? Im thinking on both sides of the board.
And yes I will cut out the rot, will have to support it and then go for it and work my way up.

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:33 pm

leave the wax paper in place if you can ,but in reality the years of layers of paint are going to likely be better then the wax paper anyways. You could also use poly and seal around all electrical boxes you come across, those are the areas that obviously leak the most .
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:42 pm

There is no wax paper, its insulation with paper on both side of it, old insulation, its attached to the insulation and thin paper on the outside of it, worn away, and the inside is maybe the tared stuff or wax stuff, and it will be pulled away if i rip the insulation out of there.
The paint you are talking about is on the drywall inside the house im assuming?
Goona be alot of work if I take out drywall from inside the house, but would be the better job done? More R value shimming walls out? and more detail and vapor barrier installed..

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:49 pm

Yes I am referring to the paint on the interior on the drywall.
Generally the paper that is against the drywall is stapled to the studs so if you are careful the insulation its self will peal off, if you are furring out the walls inside then that is the better option anyways as you can do a proper air/vapour barrier installation from inside.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 5:44 pm

I see. Good idea, to do that. I will assess the situation. I am going to cut out a section now to the right of door and see whats going on. I will have to fix this rot first.
The paint acting as a vapor barrier would be good then, as it seals it.
Most likely I will remove drywall from inside and work my way around the house room to room. And really see whats going on. I have an electrical box fuse panel, that maybe I can seal with a large vapor barrier.
Just a thought, and I dont like this option or know if its proper, but can walls be furred out towards the outside of the house to make it 2x6 walls?
Most people I ask say fur the walls out to 2x6 and it will make a difference.

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:48 pm

The joists are about 7 foot long to where they rest on a beam. I could replace the whole joist, or just attach 3 or 4 ft sections to it. Its really only 1 or 2 joist ends that are bad, the others are not to bad on the ends.
The very bottom plate was the worst and I took out about a 14 ft section of it. A car floor jack seems like its goona work best with the low profile, tested it once and saw teh whole wall move.
The plate below the floor boards, was bad a few sections, will have to cut that out, that may be a tough one, and some of the ply wood is bad, in small sections under the door and just to the sides.

Would a moisture meter tell how roten the wood is or was? It looks like real old rot or dry rot. I use my claw of my nail puller to kind of gauge how soft the wood is, or my hammer.

My options are to fix all these things, or tear the whole house down and start again. Jokes. But actually I do see a crack on teh foundation wall that goes right down and over where the plate would be. Its to the left of the door a couple feet. I wonder why or how that happened. Wonder if its from weight being un equally transfered because of the rot under the door, or if they just did not use re bar back in teh day, or what?

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:04 pm

Personally myself I am a believer in installing rigid foam to the entire exterior instead of furring the interior of the walls unless the drywall is really bad also . The foam really reduces the heat loss through the wood framing because it stops thermal bridging. I would not fur the exterior of the walls out .

If the joists are in good condition other than the very end few inches then you could sister new 4' - 5' pieces (glued and screwed) to the old ones.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:08 pm

Yes joists are in good shape other than the ends few inches. REally just the one joist got rotted bad on the end.
I will have to replace the bottom 2x6 plate, I think maybe I should use pressure treated for plates?

And wouldnt it be best to remove this old paper backed insulation, being that it probably doesnt have much R value? And then at that point if the drywall is removed, I may as well fur walls in? Or I do the job from the outside and end up with only 2x4 new insulation, and rigid foam, with maybe a total of R19. The only thing I dont really like about furing walls inside is that I will loose floor space in my already small house.

I will then re install the rigid foam, but hope it will not introduce water leaks. I will be tar papering over the osb and that will be under the rigid foam. I will be piercing nails holes all through the rigid foam and tar paper to install the vinyl siding. But I guess I would be piercing the tar paper anyways with or without the rigid foam.

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:55 pm

pt plate would be good especially if it is right on the concrete .

I prefer adding the rigid foam but that’s your call really.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:09 pm

I had to cut 16" sections for the plate on concrete, And install one at a time by jacking it up, and just normal spruce 2x6 and treated with copper green, it was still wet and I put it on foam gasket to sit on, is that ok being still wet?

Yea the rigid foam on outside of house is a bonus, i may as well re install it as I have it.
I more meant, to get rid of the old 2x4 paper backed insulation, is that worth it? Or maybe thats a no brainer, as it probably has such a low R value.
I see what your saying. You would rather install foam to exterior to up the R value.
I guess I will end up with best of both worlds if I foam exterior and fur walls in, to 2x6, but not absolutely nessesary. Sounds like with such a small house, the 2x4 walls are fine, with upgraded insulation and foam board exterior. Depends who you talk to I guess to. Cost savings maybe.

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:59 pm

Hey I dug down a bit on my foundations just under my door and noticed, there is no footings poured, its just a 8 inch wide wall poured on what looks like maybe they put lots of rocks on the bottom, and it goes about 20-24 inch deep, the concrete wall.
Have you ever heard of this or seen this before? Is this an old way of building, being that this is such an old house, maybe thats how they did it back in the day?

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by A. Spruce » Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:19 am

Old houses have many secrets.

No, that was not an authorized method, even back in the day. This is more of a "what they don't know, won't hurt 'em" kind of thing. I would only change it now if you've got movement issues.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:30 am

Best case would be to have the foam on outside and fur out ,add insulation and proper vapour barrier.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:35 pm

Hey if I want to frame a door opening to fit a 32x80 door,
How big do I make the door frame? Is it 2 inches bigger all around? so 34x82.5"
I may try removing this door and re centering it. I am having some problems with the dead bolt being lined up now, it was before, but walls must have shifted a bit when I jacked it up.
And I may frame it so future, its ready for a 32x80. Its 32x76 right now I think.

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:22 pm

Most frames would fit best in a 34-2/2”x82-1/2 opening. Basically you want opening 1/2” taller then frame and 1” wider then frame
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:00 am

I measured a few old doors and frames I have here, they are 32x80, the height of the frame is 83" How come some are bigger over 82.5" ?
IN this case I would have to frame the door even bigger? Maybe its different with different doors?

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:43 am

Old door sizes maybe? Most doors used to be smaller that I have seen. Anyways good to know exactly the door you are installing and measurements from that for your RO
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:25 pm

No these doors are not that old, they had hd sticker on some, or masonite sticker on one or two.

Whats the deal with doors. and replacing. My house had 2x4 walls, but I am furring in to 2x6 walls.

Can I still use 2x4 doors? Or should I always put in 2x6 jam doors when I have 2x6 walls?

When hanging a door, do I always make the jam flush with the drywall inside the house and work from there?
I see my door sill hangs over the edge quite a bit, so when someone steps on it, it can flex out lever out quite a bit. I wonder if I can prevent this? Someone put this sill in after, it is not the one that came with this door. As it is wider. Probably the door or bottom rotted out before and they had to replace it.

Also in the series of pictures I posted on here. Do you see a problem? I think I need to make a cut out on the concrete wall, where it meets teh house wall under the door, the wood porch you stand on, the concrete wall is poured flush with the plate. So Im thinking maybe water can hit this exposed concrete porch wall area and creep under my wall plates? So I am making cuts parallel on this wall on the concrete so water can drain away escape. What do you think. 1.5" squared groove cut in it should be enough?

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:11 pm

well regardless frame the opening to fit the frames you will be using.
It would be bets to use frames that are for 2x6 walls so you do to have to extend the frames and also to allow the door to open past 100 degrees . When the door frame is narrower then the wall and installed flush towards the exterior the hinges will be inset from the wall surface and will not allow the door to open up 180 degrees if that is needed?

A small cut 1/2" wide and 1/2" deep will do the trick on that concrete.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:18 pm

Ok that will be fine, my door only needs to open 90 degree, and need only 32" door.
I will keep the door I have for now. But maybe put the header up higher, and remove it to install tar paper on the jams.

Can I just use tar paper to wrap my door and window sills and walls?
I dont need the house to have a air draft proof seal like tyvec do I ?
I know I think I may have asked already.
I think there is some install window wrap info on milgard site maybe I can find out on there the procedure.

And run my sheeting above the cut out on foundations by about 1/2 inch to keep it from getting wet?
or run it down to the cut out and let the next layer of sheeting hang below that?

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:25 pm

There is no benefit at all IMO in adding tar paper or any kind of house wrap to the door or window jams. Install it to the edge of the openings if you want to (only if the doors/windows are removed to replace anyways) and use canned window and door foam to insulate and seal the R.O. spaces after. You do need tar paper or house wrap on your exterior walls though before you install the siding or whatever you are using.

I though you were only worried about the concrete areas that support the porch or step? There is not enough edge along the wall plate on the grade beams to worry about otherwise. Run your plywood wood close to the bottom or bottom plate and if you are really worried run a bead of sealant there to keep the edge out of the water . Once the siding is installed it will hang over the grade beam anyways.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:13 am

Yea I guess youre right, as I will be spray can foaming the rough openings anyways.
I do kind of want to lay tar paper or something under my door sill, as I can remove it, as its not attached to the jam, its installed separate.
Alot of videos show the tyvec or tar paper being installed before the window install, and then a slice at the top on 45 degree angles, then fold that down over after window install.
So 60 min tar paper, single layers all the way up, over lap on the lines at 6 or 8 inches I think it is, and just run it up to the window jam or
Did you mean, I install my window first before tar paper?

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:50 am

There are different ways to do it depending on the window having nail fin or brick mould.
Here is my play list of window /door related videos:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXfVf48 ... 4c9b6VRflg

For the door you can create a sill pan with the paper if you like but a membrane product would be better.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:00 pm

Thanks yes Ive now seen all your videos on that list, those are helpful and good videos.

I only have tar paper, I dont have the blue skin membrane stuff, I could go buy it, but I think its expensive.
I see how you do the window install job from new construction and existing window install re and re.
I would be at the point of new construction as everything is removed.
So it sounds like I should install window first, then tar paper up to the window. Or install tap paper first? But then how would I over lap window nailing fin, and top fin.
Yes I have nailing fin windows, but I like the looks of those renovation brick mold windows with no nailing fin. That seems to be a good idea.

On the concrete, yes I cut a big groove in the concrete porch section that meets the house wall, about the size of a 2x4, so that should take care of that, as lots of the layers of sheeting and foam and siding will stick out.

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:45 am

You can purchase the Resisto or Blue skin in narrow rolls made for this. You should use the primer as well to help it stick best. If you have a tight budget you can use a couple of layers of tar paper to create the "pan".
If you are just using tar paper on walls run your tar paper up to the opening and cut it just short of opening (maybe 3/4" ) fold the top section up out of way. Apply a bead of silicone around the opening on the exposed wood right next to the opening. Install the window, tape the bottom and then sides, fold the top paper down and tape it . The tape does not stick as well to the tar paper but try to get it stuck well.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:57 am

Thanks.
I took out the other window on the other side and re framed it. All insulation and drywall out. Was very un insulated, with some parts of the wall, with about 2 inchs of air space where the insulation was about an inch thick and pushed into the wall towards the outside. Not much of a good job, sloppy and some areas behind blocking there was no insulation at all. These areas were the areas that felt really cold.
Was a terrible window install job who ever did it. There was no window sill plate. Just the cripples sticking up, so I guess it was to much work for them to cut them off and put in a sill I guess to size it for the window... And pink insulation stuffed in on air gaps where the sill plate should have been, No nails through the header, just two on each ends... So anyhow, I fixed all this, its strong now, nailing 3 rows of nails every 8 inches through the header. And new jack studs, and cripples attached to jack too.
Yea that blue skin and spray is expensive, 65 or 70 bucks for both, it all ads up, all this. I think I will take my chances and just use tar paper, carefully installed. Maybe I can post some pictures of a method I may go with, as I found on a window at hh on the sticker. And I will review your method now, that sounds good too.

I could maybe use the blue tuck tape? Its maybe for outdoors or bathroom or stickier?
Can I use the grey plastic electrical boxes for my install with vap barriers? Or does this make any difference, just keep my metal ones where needed? I think I heard the plastic ones were for out doors.
I like the use of the silicone behind the window flange, and maybe leave a few water drain spots on the bottom. What kind of sealant should I use, just the hh silicone brand stuff?
This may be over kill, but I do want to use screws to install the window, because I cant find any flat head screws around, maybe I could wood screws with washers?
A number of different methods for nailing window flange I have heard, some guys say only nail sides and leave top and bottom, others dont nail the top.

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Aaron » Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:53 pm

I'd stick with the metal boxes with those vapor barrier pockets. Metal boxes are just stronger and more durable, my two cents about the electrical. If you can reuse what you already have go for it, but be sure to use those poly pockets.

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