Replacing Bay Window

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Shannon
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:59 pm

The blue is for vapour barrier, I really do not know the difference but it does seem stickier?
I agree with Aaron ,I prefer the metal boxes and a vapour bag around it.
Really any exterior silicone is fine.A couple drains on bottom edge can't hurt.
Wood screws with washers is going to stick up pretty good , Shingle nails are more then enough especially with the silicone, foam etc . It all hold everything in.
Nail every second hole or every hole in all sides.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:15 am

I guess the metal elec boxes are stronger, maybe can take more side to side movement of plug ins and prying.
I guess I have to take apart the elec box and feed wires through the vapor barrier covers.
Ok good to know you use silicone, I guess its just more durable or something. I think I did use quad sealant on my bathroom window flange, but it may be hard to remove if ever, unless I sealed it to tar paper, I cant remember now.
In a way it makes no sense to leave drain holes if you are blue skinning right over the bottom window fin.
I used wood screws with a small washer on my bathroom window, and it seemed to work, but I have installed vinyl siding.
This seems a good method to prep window install, method B looks like for tar paper, and looks like they use 9 inch strips of tar paper for flashing. And Method A looks like for Tyvek wrap etc. And using blue skin adhesive flashing can be used too. In the write up they have a few different methods based on the diagram.
I will go with method B I think, or maybe a combo of Shannons, cutting to expose the wood, for sealant to bond too. I may add in a window sill flashing with two layers of tar paper and over lap the other layers outside, and some guys put a little slope on it so water can not run in but out. Could even build a slight slope with tar paper layered up. I did that with my bathroom window install. Then tuck taped the very corners of the sill...
Shannon, I am thinking about why and if I should make a 3/4 cut around perimeter of window opening, to expose the wood sheathing.
Why would that be better than adhering to the tar paper or tyvek?
Is it that you think air can get by the wrap and inside the house?
But the gaps will be spray foamed. And flanges nailed or screwed in place. But at same time it makes sense what you say, as if you silicone to the wrap, that is not doing as much maybe, as its only adhering to the wrap.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:43 pm

I for got you are flashing the windows, so leaving drains is not needed. If i am doing an install where I cant flash then I leave drains just incase.

I silicone right to the wood because if you seal to the paper or wrap, what are you sealing really? If moisture gets behind the wrap or paper it will just travel in under the window lip and into the opening. IMO. If the opening is all membraned to the wall and window installed over that then I seal to the membrane.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:13 pm

Thanks. Yes sorry, I was unclear on what I was working on because I jump around lots. I am replacing windows, and have it to new construction stage, all sheeting is bare and on now.
The old door is still in place, but I might remove it. But have a chance to flash under the sill or sill area, so will do at least. For now I want to concentrate on getting these windows installed, and flashed and tar paper rest of the wall.
The osb sheathing is all in place over the 3/4 ship lap, and window openings are cut out. I cut out the window openings with a circular saw, bit tricky. Ran screws through from the other side and chalked lined. My one window opening is supposed to be 48 rough wide opening. But I had 50, so I put a 2x4 in the jam vertical, but so in reality im still half inch to big. I wonder how fussy these windows are when you install them, if I should be really the 3/4 inch larger like they say. So 3/8" per side. Maybe I will dry fit to see whats what. Rough opening is pretty good, but not perfect, some of the ship lap hangs over a bit. I wonder if i should trim it as flush to the sill and rough opening as I can. I would hate to cut it to big or something. And dont want to flash all this untill I know for sure its all good.

How much bigger can I usually have a rough opening than window size? Or does it depend on windows? I will maybe measure the fins and where the holes and and stuff. And dry fit.

Yes from the diagram I posted, I see problems, if you dont use self adhesive flashing to the wood, if water was to get in above the flashing, it could run in behind the flashing and get inside the house...
All especially above the window I would think. I kind of question if it is good to staple the flashing or tar paper above the window at all, because you are introducing a hole in it, where water could run down in behind flashing.
If I flash my windows the method B in diagrams I posted, then if I nailed or got any holes in the tar paper above the window, then water could run in behind the flashing and into the house.
If I do the method B 1, it is unclear a bit of the order in which to flash the window, Tar paper first, then jam flashing, then window install? Or jamb flashing first, then tar paper, then window?
Method B looks decent if you use tar paper and non self adhesive flashing, I may go for it. But will change my method if I use the self adhesive flashing. Then I will do it your way. It does make sense to seal self adhesive flashing to the wood. I would think there method A1 is adequate as they are sealing to the wood above the window.
Method A is a bit unclear too, as if you install the wrap after the flashing and window install, then the bottom will be left open and water could get in. Unless I am missing something here. How could they over lap if its already installed.
Also I think in some videos, people use self adhesive flashing stuck under the window after teh window has been installed. And then if the flashing lifts off, which it probably does, or could, then water will get in behind and run down the wall osb. Because really water is probably going to hit the top and run down the sides of the window and run off bottom of window.
Last edited by kurt333 on Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:46 am

If you have the windows you can measure off them or dry fit to see how everything fits. If these have a nailing flange the opening cant be to big or your nail slots will not line up with wood sheathing .

Most membranes are "self healing" and in reality how much moisture could possibly get through a staple hole ??

Either method will work. Just make your products lap working from bottom to top.

Time to get these windows installed
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:34 am

Thanks, i think rough openings are looking pretty good, will dry fit to make sure, looks like im 3/8 wider than 48 wide it calls for, on hd in stock window.

So if i use tar paper with self adhesive flashing, then i would flash the windows the way you do it in your videos? Cut tar paper wrap inch or so bigger at opening, then lay bottom flashing, sealant, install window,and flash sides and top and tape.
If i dont use self achesive flashing, then install window to method b in diagram?
The only thing i would be unsure about self adhesive flashing is if it was to come un stuck and peel away from the tar paper after install.
And about the tar paper method and staple or nails introducing water leaks above window, i more meant nail holes, and installing foam board and vinyl siding above it. But im thinking vinyl siding cant leak or get water in behind it, except at the ends and j chanel?

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:59 pm

Ok here is the video That I would refer you too: Do it just like this.This is pretty much like B
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YttTTi-hNZc

A is installing the window over the building wrap.I never do this as I described earlier.

If you do not wanna use membrane then I would use house wrap instead of tar paper because because I am not sure how well tuck tape sticks to tar paper. Install the house wrap, cut it an inch bigger around the opening. Silicone/caulk perimeter of hole ,install window, tape house wrap to window.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:09 am

Yes good video. thanks.
And yes, Your method seems good like A1 method, You just make a 1 inch cut around it. Which does seem a good idea and makes sense. As that is last line of defence to keep water out on that sealant. There is another guy on youtube that does it like you, but he makes two 45 degree cuts at the bottom of the window too. And runs the self adhesive flashing along there.
The method A in this diagram doesnt make sense, (A1 is clear and makes sense) unless im missing something, because it says to put the WRB on after, then that would leave the sides and bottom open of the wrb. There would be nothing to tuck the bottom of the wrb under, as its installed last. Anyhow im not using wrap anyways. But just see this.

And can you make any sense of the directions from 9. and on in diagram? There saying use a sealant somewhere, and not sure if that is refering to if you use tar paper or what, it gets so confusing trying to follow all these directions they have written, its kind of written in some confusing way, not easy to read sort of thing.

I only want to use tar paper as my WRB, weather resistant barrier.
My options are:
1. Method B. using 12" cuts of tar paper for flashing, just like in diagram. But I could use sealant under the tar paper flashing against the wood, and under nailing flange. And could try and put tuck tape over the nailing flange too where I can fit it.
Or
2. do it your way, and cut away 1 inch around, and use Blue skin on the tar paper. Would that hold and stick good on tar paper? Other people are using it in the videos. Is blue skin made to be used with tar paper?
Or
3. do it your way, cut away 1 inch around, but use tuck tape, blue or red, and will it hold and stick to tar paper? Could do a test piece. I think tuck tape wont hold to osb, and wood, and that is the real problem.

Seems like method B for tar paper is risk free, there is nothing to go wrong, just plain old flashing pieces and tar paper over the window flange, few lines of defense, and sealant.

Are the instore Jeldwin and mil gards windows of the same quality?
When I put the level on one edge, its straight horizontal, then i put it on the other side, its not level, then the same on the top, except its reversed, so its opposite. So maybe its tweaked or bent or something. Should I be shimming it in three places under window?
The window is looking like it will fit in the rough opening pretty good, I will just have to center it to get good contact bite. If I put it all the way to one side, then the nail holes are right on the very edge of the rough opening.

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:27 am

There are about 50 ways to install this window. all vary slightly depending on products used ,climate and personal preference. You need to pick one or a combination that works for you and get the window installed.

no idea on window quality comparisons. Using a level to get levelness and plumb when installing and also use it to get sides straight. Some windows can be out of square and in most cases can be manipulated during install to square them back up. If they are a slider you usually have more forgiveness if they cant be close to 100% but windows with mechanical operators have less of a tolerance usually to keep them from binding and operating well.

Good luck, lets get these installed.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:13 pm

Thanks boss.
Hey this gentleman, does it similar to yours, except he makes a bit more of a 45 cut on the bottom, and flashes under the 45 cut fold. I wonder if thats a good idea, or introducing a open spot at the end of the 45 cut, but will be over lapped over with a vertical anyways.
I do like how he flashes the sill plate, I would do that, if I blue skin type flashing. And if I use tar paper flashing, I can also do same, with addition of some tuck tape.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EkdqZD5hlQ
Is there any point in tuck taping the tar paper horizontal and vertical, like they have done here?

The only thing I dont like about using this self adhesive flashing and making the 1 or 2 inch cut away around the perimeter of the rough opening, is if the adhesive flashing ever comes loose or backs off of the vinyl window flange or wrap, You would be in rough shape then. And Im not speaking from experience, just guessing in theory. Maybe that adhesive flashing will never let go of the vinyl window fin and wood... Maybe if you dont use the spray adhesive it will be more likely to let go... I have no evidence to back this up, just saying and guessing.
What I do like about the method of running the wrap right up to the opening and not doing the rough opening cut away is, if the adhesive flashing ever lets go, water will not have a chance to get in behind.
What I do like about the tar paper flashing, is there is no adhesive to let go and back off, just flashing and over lapping.

So when I tar paper my walls, Im going to let it over hang 1 inch past the osb sheeting?
Should I double layer this 60 min tar paper? Or run it half way on every layer, so I get two layers. Or just leave it the 8 inches below the over lap?

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:50 pm

Should I run a drip cap flashing above window install after? and just below tar paper?
Should I run a drip cap flashing at the bottom of the osb wall near foundation wall?
I have over lapped tar paper an inch or more beyond the wood.
I have 60 min tar paper for my walls.
Should I over lap tar paper in the middle so it is always doubled up?
Or just 6 inches or so over lap?
Or two layers of 30 min or 60 min.
If I go heavy on the tar paper, is that still enough for vapor to escape and dry out?

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:05 am

Window cap above window with house wrap (tar paper) lapping down onto it and taped.
In some cases a drip at bottom of wall can be useful to shed water further away or out over any over hang that is present. If you need it use it.
60 lb paper is more than enough in one layer but you do need to lap the upper rows over the lower rows by a bout 4” and vertical joints should be lapped by 16” min.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:39 pm

I can install window first then put drip cap in latter and tuck it under tar paper?
For bottom drip cap, i have nothing that it has to clear really, the osb sticks out 1/2 inch more than foundations and the siding will stick out more.
I hung the tar paper over the osb 3 inches at the bottom and foundations, and i think to code here is two layers of 60 min, but seems like a bit much hey.

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:10 pm

I don’t use tar paper and can not remember what the code was for it. I thought 60lb 1 layer but I could be wrong?
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:16 pm

Thanks Shannon.
im finding out, seems heavy.
Thers maybe no harm in putting it on heavy and to much? Still will breathe?

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:37 am

I really do not think you need two layers of 60lb. Likely breathes ok though , not sure
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:57 am

They said two layers of 30 min, or one layer of 60 min lapped 4".

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:17 pm

You stated back a couple posts that you thought code in your area was 2 layers of 60lb. I was just saying that is way over kill.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:25 pm

Looks like that J trim is a special order, 1.5 inch wide, or to accept the foam board and vinyl siding.
Im hoping I wont need more, being that Im making my window frames smaller.
Wonder if I did need any, if instead, I could install the foam board beneath normal 5/8 " J trim. Really what difference would it make. But may not need any, not sure yet, I did slice a bit from around the door or window by accident. So I would have to run all of them one way or the other.
The j trim will stick outboard of the window frame. Being that window sticks out only 7/8"
I guess this is not ideal for looks.
This wont cause any sweating issues having the foam board installed right over the tar paper and under the vinyl siding?

I stapled the first layer of tar paper 60 min on the bottom row, and just over night and some rain, I notice it pulled away from alot of the staples. So it must expand and shrink or something or have moved around, just over night. And its slightly warped in sections. Got alot of rain over night.
I could always install it with roofing nails under the laps? or the plastic washer nails that look really nice.
I wonder if 30 min tar paper would pull away from staples so easy over night, I was suprised by this.

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:28 pm

Shannon wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:17 pm
You stated back a couple posts that you thought code in your area was 2 layers of 60lb. I was just saying that is way over kill.
Thanks, Yea you were right, over kill, they probably side on the side of over kill already.
I may lap it half way, or 4 inches. If I lap it half way that means its doubled up.
It says on the tar paper, to double it up for best moisture protection, but not sure if they are refering to roof or walls or both.

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:32 pm

Single layer of 60 min with 4 inch over lap it is then, 12 inch tar paper flashing, method b.
Even with roofing nails, the tar paper likes to pull away a bit slightly if you hammer them in to hard and rip it, but I think they hold it much better. Maybe the sun hits the tar paper and it moves around and deforms. I will try and cover it as soon as I can.

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:16 pm

The laps of tar paper definatly dont work out looking like diagram method B, The 40 inch almost goes the whole height of the window. Anyhow should still work out.
If I did it again, I may have used 30 min, and ran it half way on the laps. Kind of working up in smaller increments.

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:57 pm

I’m sorry but at this point you are so over thinking this project (just like the last one) I don’t even know what to say anymore.
As for the stapled paper coming loose after a heavy rain that would be pretty normal I would think , it’s made to be covered up with siding or some other finish and the fasteners and surface of those products help hold it to the wall. Use shingle nails if this will not be covered for a few days to help hold it.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:06 pm

Yes thanks. Im learning and thinking this through carefully, and glad ive chosen the way of flashing the window. Learning from doing.

May i ask this... Is there any point in putting a slope on a window sill, if youre going to spray foam the inside gap anyways... water would not run off anyways because of all the spray foam in the perimeter gap of the window and on the sill gap.?

Thst silicone caulking doesnt stick to tar paper very good, but to osb it sure does. I need to go get some more, wonder if i should use quad or dyna flex dap maybe? Or makes no differnce.

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:45 am

With today’s products like sprayfoam it is not as critical IMO to slope the sill and I would not go to any heroics to do so, but if it’s not much extra work it can’t hurt.

This is another reason to cut it back like I suggest. Caulking/silicone really does not stick to paper or house wrap well.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:48 pm

Yes, maybe with old aluminum windows that sweat lots, maybe it was more important.
Yes, I cant figure out how I would put a slope on the sill, and not shim the window up to much, and have the window sit on the shims squarely.
I read you... I am over thinking for sure.
Were not building a clock or car here, but a house. Its not super precison and stuff. Thats what I like about this kind of work, its all general and universal, maybe common sense on lots, but got to know what youre doing.
Ive learned a ton from that bathroom reno, and drywall, so can fly at it now.
Thanks for putting up with me... haha

Hey I was looking at my windows with vinyl siding, and above my windows, I have only 1.5 inch J Channel, I dont see where the drip cap would fit? or if there would be any point in even putting the drip cap on the top of the window, none of my windows have it. They would not fit above the J channel, And below it, im not so sure there would be a point. If raining or if im washing siding etc, water hits above window, then it will go into J channel and run down sides of window and J channel and really, it will find its way behind the siding for sure. I can see it.
I can post pics if that makes it easier.
Is there a reason why there is 1/2 and 5/8" J channel? different size siding I guess...

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:14 pm

If your windows are that close to the underside of the soffit you do not need drip cap.

Yup different siding sizes .
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:41 am

Windows are 9 inches below soffits.
But where would I put the drip cap if I did want to install them. Do you just leave the top J channel off, and put drip cap just above window? Because any run off down the siding would go in the J channel first, I would think.
I just watched your video on vinyl siding, good video, I will be using that. But it looks like infact you do leave the J channel off the top of the window. Is this correct. Then you just run the siding over top of the drip cap with nothing.

I got one window installed, I used alot of silicone, screws and washers on every hole spacing. Maybe to many? Nails would probably be fine around window fin, but screws are so much nicer to remove and secured in there...
The silicone sets up fast though. There is so much silicone between the holes on the window, that it bulges out kind of, and the screws stay indented in.

That quad sealant is just so messy. I tried using it, its so tough when it drys, and hard to clean up, so I decided against it. I think the silicone is probably more than enough. It sticks well enough to anything, like tar paper, just as long as you dont scrub away at it, then it come right off the tar paper but not wood I think. I could have maybe made a small cut in the tar paper to expose the wood, and still been screwing the tar paper under the fin maybe, but close. I dont think wind or air or water will have a chance to get past the window fin, as I have so many screws in there, and silicone. Then will have foam on inside gaps of window.

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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by Shannon » Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:41 am

Here is my current entire vinyl siding playlist. On there you will find one that is about J channel and in that video i show a couple of ways to do the drip cap and explain why it is used.https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... Np41NoreOQ

You maybe used a larger bead of sealant then you need but at least you know you have a seal.
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Re: Replacing Bay Window

Post by kurt333 » Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:50 pm

Hey is there any truth or point in not nailing or screwing the top nailing fin on a new window install?
Some say to not nail it. Maybe thats if its a new house build. Maybe the header could bow over time and take the window out? I know one of my headers was bowed and un even but it didnt do nothing, but I changed the header, and they did not nail it through either, old DF wood it was.

Apparently there is two types of silicone sealant. The type that has the strong acid in it for sealing to smooth surfaces and the other kind that doesnt have the strong acid smell in it, it is for sealing to more porous surfaces like wood etc. Just throwing that out there if you have heard of this. I decided to try that quad or quad max stuff on my next install, but this time I have a white colored quad, its poly urethane, messy stuff, Splitting hairs here probably again, just putting it out there thought..

I couldnt find that vinyl J trim cutting tool you have in the video, couldnt find it at HD or HH. Wonder where they sell it or if its so needed for the little work I may be doing on my house. haha. Thanks. I guess I can just cut it carefully, Looks like a good tool though, speedy.

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