dishwasher GFI question

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gatsby
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dishwasher GFI question

Post by gatsby » Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:32 am

I been doing lots of reading on this and want another opinion.

I have my new dishwasher installed but not to the breaker yet. I have the dishwasher pigtailed so it will plug into a receptacle under the sink. I have a 12/2 wire run from panel to the receptacle under the sink and in the next day or 2 will get the rest installed at the receptacle and breaker.

From what I am reading and seeing mixed reviews on are the use of GFI outlets or some suggesting GFI breakers and now I am reading that an AFCI breakers for kitchens are becoming code.

I am just trying to make sure I install the right breaker or receptacle where it needs to be for the dishwasher if any of these are actually required.

What are your opinions on this?

kind regards,

Mike

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emtnut
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Re: dishwasher GFI question

Post by emtnut » Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:41 am

A dishwasher is considered a motor load and a heating load.
You need a 20 Amp breaker with 12/2 on a separate circuit.

Make sure the receptacle you are plugging into is not shared with anything else.
As far a GFCI protection, there is nothing stopping you from doing it, but you would have to contact your ahj whether it is required. I believe NEC 2008 does not require it. NEC 2012 does require it, but your area may not be using that version of code yet. Aaron may know for your area.

Wayne
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Re: dishwasher GFI question

Post by gatsby » Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:46 pm

Thanks for reply.

It will be on its own circuit with 12/2 wire. I am at the point where I need to install the breaker and the receptacle and just wanted to make sure I install with the right stuff as to regards of GFI if i needed it.

I am located in British Columbia, Canada and I did see the codes by the NEC that you mentioned last night and the one for 2012 is what got me mixed up as I was seeing mixed opinions on what to install and where

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Aaron
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Re: dishwasher GFI question

Post by Aaron » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:36 pm

In BC you'd follow the CEC. I'm not sure there's a GFCI requirement for a dishwasher. I kind of doubt it if you run a dedicated circuit for that appliance only. What you could do is just wire a standard circuit as Wayne said above with 12/2 and a 20A plugin. Down the road if an inspector or someone tells you that it should have been GFCI, then you could just change out either the plugin for a GFCI one or a breaker for a GFCI one. No harm no foul.

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Shannon
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Re: dishwasher GFI question

Post by Shannon » Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:33 pm

It normally would not need a GFCI but then again they are usually direct wired any I have seen. I would almost think to be safe if it's under the sink I would install a20A GFCI receptacle , if you are going to get a leak it would usually happen under the sink ?
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Re: dishwasher GFI question

Post by Shannon » Thu Nov 05, 2015 2:14 pm

Shannon wrote:It normally would not need a GFCI but then again they are usually direct wired any I have seen. I would almost think to be safe if it's under the sink I would install a20A GFCI receptacle , if you are going to get a leak it would usually happen under the sink ?
Ya know after thinking about this since I posted it, I'm not sure the circuit is supposed to be 20amp, but I know the cable should be 12/2.
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Re: dishwasher GFI question

Post by Aaron » Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:54 pm

I know I have a non-GFCI 15A circuit and plugin for my dishwasher. I think I ran 12/2, though, just because it's the kitchen and I figured there might be a future 20A retrofit. I installed a cord with a plug on it for both the dishwasher and under-sink disposer just for faster disconnects. I know the cord itself uses no larger than #16 conductors, which is rated for less than 15A of continuous current, so there's that. I should maybe be using a thicker cord, but I've never had any issue. (I wonder if it's getting really warm while the dishwasher's running?)

I do have both the disposer and dishwasher on separate 15A circuits.

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Re: dishwasher GFI question

Post by Shannon » Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:14 pm

If you have a newer dishwasher and are using the heated dry feature , it may be heating up?
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Re: dishwasher GFI question

Post by emtnut » Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:18 pm

I'll try to sum it all up ...

Some areas require 15A , some 20A
15A circuit = 14AWG , 20A circuit = 12AWG (I know you all know that)
Some areas say 15A breaker, but with 12AWG because of the heat generated by the dishwasher.

My area (Ontario) , says you can use a 15 A breaker if the nameplate data on the dishwasher is 1800 Watts or less. If you do not know what the nameplate data is (ie: new construction) you have to put in a 20A/12AWG, Or obviously if your dishwasher is rated higher than 1800 watts

The REAL answer is call your AHJ and find out.
Easy answer is run 12/2 on a 20A :)


Aaron, regarding the 16guage wire on the dishwasher ... 16 guage wire is actually good for 22 amps. But not in circuits run in walls/insulation/ with up to 3 other cables etc .... It is the code book that reduces the amperage rating in order to keep the 'heat' on the cable low (which is easy on your smoke detectors!!! )

Not done yet !!! .... 2015 CEC will require GFCI on it's circuits as well. I'm fairly sure that 2012 NEC already does, but I cant confirm


Hopefully I haven't confused everyone ... but feel free to question me :)

Wayne

well ... stilll not done .... won't go through it, but water heaters are as convoluted too ... different rules for various areas !!
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Re: dishwasher GFI question

Post by Shannon » Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:03 pm

Good info thanks Emtnut!
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Re: dishwasher GFI question

Post by Aaron » Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:10 pm

Yeah good schooling on cords versus hard wire. I had no idea there was such distinction. Makes perfect sense the hard wire would be underrated, or at least rated for the worst-case scenario. Thanks Wayne.

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Re: dishwasher GFI question

Post by emtnut » Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:52 am

Hey Gatsby,

Re-reading your question , and you mentioned AFCI for kitchens as well.
That is not in the code yet for kitchens, however the dishwasher as well as fridge (or anything else with a 'motor' on it) would not be required. The motor would trip the AFCI EVERY time it started !

If you want to call your AHJ , in BC it's the "British Columbia Safety Authority". They will gladly let you know what they are currently enforcing regarding GFCI's.

I was also thinking , if you do go with the GFCI (as Shannon said, it would be a safer installation and I agree) , you would have to do it at the breaker .... As a receptacle, you wouldn't be able to reset it !!! (hidden behind the dishwasher)

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Re: dishwasher GFI question

Post by Shannon » Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:01 pm

emtnut wrote:
I was also thinking , if you do go with the GFCI (as Shannon said, it would be a safer installation and I agree) , you would have to do it at the breaker .... As a receptacle, you wouldn't be able to reset it !!! (hidden behind the dishwasher)

Wayne
I think he was placing the receptacle under the sink.
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Re: dishwasher GFI question

Post by gatsby » Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:16 pm

thanks for all the tips. I have contacted the city inspector but had to leave a message since he was away the past couple days.

The receptacle is going under the sink. The one nice thing about this install is that the panel is directly below the kitchen. I have wired it up with 12/2 wire and 20amp breaker for now. If they recommend the GFCI receptacle I will change it out.

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Re: dishwasher GFI question

Post by emtnut » Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:49 am

[/quote]

I think he was placing the receptacle under the sink.[/quote]


Should have re-read my re-read !

I'm sure he will ask for a GFCI there .... Let us know how it goes, always interested what Inspectors say in various areas
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Re: dishwasher GFI question

Post by emtnut » Mon Nov 09, 2015 11:04 am

emtnut wrote:Hey Gatsby,

Re-reading your question , and you mentioned AFCI for kitchens as well.
That is not in the code yet for kitchens, however the dishwasher as well as fridge (or anything else with a 'motor' on it) would not be required. The motor would trip the AFCI EVERY time it started !

Wayne
Edit *** Actually an AF breaker would not trip with the motor load, only the combo AFCI breakers would**

That's good, because in 2015 CEC they WILL be required just about everywhere.

Wayne
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Re: dishwasher GFI question

Post by gatsby » Wed Nov 11, 2015 2:34 am

I got what was required. I need a GFCI receptacle.

I got that installed but I did not realize that the panel in this house i bought was that old. I have to order a breaker yet, but it uses the old ITE BL Load Centers breakers. I found one listed on the Home Depot website for 71.50 but I have to travel to get there.

I will be looking at upgrading the panel sometime next year and then install a 200 amp service panel instead of this 100 amp panel that I have now.

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Re: dishwasher GFI question

Post by emtnut » Wed Nov 11, 2015 8:04 am

$71.50 :shock: Dollars :shock:

I get contractor pricing, but I can buy a loadcenter for that !

This may be a bit of a hack, so let's see what Shannon says... but do you have a circuit you don't need till the spring ? Maybe the outside plugs ? I'd use that till you change the panel.

If you post a picture, I think I may have one of those breakers in my old schtuff ... I could sent it to you if you don't have a spare circuit.
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Re: dishwasher GFI question

Post by Shannon » Wed Nov 11, 2015 9:33 am

You could even check with a company that does electrical work maybe they have even a used one kicking around that would get you through, Emtnut solution would work as well.
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gatsby
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Re: dishwasher GFI question

Post by gatsby » Wed Nov 11, 2015 4:26 pm

I found a spare circuit just sitting in the panel but it is a tandem 30 amp breaker. There are no 20 amp breakers in the panel at all. they are either 15 amp or dual pole 30 or 40 amp.

The dishwasher I found out can run on the 15 amp circuit when wattage to spare under the 80% use.

None of the breakers are labelled so I will have to test each one and see what each powers and see if I can swipe one till I get a new panel. I would get it now but its hovering around 0 degrees so I dont want to turn the heat off too long.

Here is a pic of what the style of the breaker looks like
breaker.jpg
breaker.jpg (94.68 KiB) Viewed 1879 times
I contacted the two local electrical places. One can get one for 100.00 and the other was 65.00. I did notice at Rona I can order one for 59.99 and I have found a used one online in Ontario for 40.00 shipped.

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Re: dishwasher GFI question

Post by Shannon » Wed Nov 11, 2015 7:48 pm

Ya ,those were a very common breaker for many years. In fact i think thats whats in my garage panel.
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Re: dishwasher GFI question

Post by gatsby » Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:26 am

I lucked out and got a breaker for 5 bucks and just got it hooked up today. Works awesome

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