feeder wire with cut neutral

Ask your electrical related questions here
Post Reply
diytexas
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:39 pm

feeder wire with cut neutral

Post by diytexas » Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:53 pm

Looking to convert an old feeder wire into a subpanel to avoid digging and running a whole new line. It used to run to a central AC that's no longer active. It's an 8 (or 6) gauge (to be determined)

Anyway, whoever installed it cut the neutral down to the entrance of the junction box. If I install a subpanel, the neutral won't be long enough.

Question is, on a subpanel, can you just wire nut the feeder line to extend it into the panel? Or is there a more accepted solution? Or is it just totally out of code to "patch" a feeder line


User avatar
emtnut
Posts: 1492
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:21 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: feeder wire with cut neutral

Post by emtnut » Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:29 pm

diytexas wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:53 pm
Looking to convert an old feeder wire into a subpanel to avoid digging and running a whole new line. It used to run to a central AC that's no longer active. It's an 8 (or 6) gauge (to be determined)

Anyway, whoever installed it cut the neutral down to the entrance of the junction box. If I install a subpanel, the neutral won't be long enough.

Question is, on a subpanel, can you just wire nut the feeder line to extend it into the panel? Or is there a more accepted solution? Or is it just totally out of code to "patch" a feeder line
Done all the time on panel changes.
For a panel, I'd go with screw type connectors .. either insulated, or tape and heat shrink the barrel type.
~~ This space for rent ... apply within :mrgreen: ~~

diytexas
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:39 pm

Re: feeder wire with cut neutral

Post by diytexas » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:14 pm

Got it. Thanks.

Would it need an access box or can it just be in the normal conduit leading to the panel? (screwed and heatshrunk)

User avatar
Aaron
Posts: 2717
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2015 4:03 pm
Location: St. Paul, MN

Re: feeder wire with cut neutral

Post by Aaron » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:29 pm

I'd think it'd be fine in the conduit.

User avatar
emtnut
Posts: 1492
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:21 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: feeder wire with cut neutral

Post by emtnut » Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:33 pm

A splice needs to be accessible, so if the wire is too short where it enters the sub panel to do a splice, you would need a junction box before it.

Not sure if I picture this or not ... how would you even splice if the wire is cut right at the conduit entrance ??
~~ This space for rent ... apply within :mrgreen: ~~

User avatar
Aaron
Posts: 2717
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2015 4:03 pm
Location: St. Paul, MN

Re: feeder wire with cut neutral

Post by Aaron » Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:11 pm

emtnut wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:33 pm
A splice needs to be accessible, so if the wire is too short where it enters the sub panel to do a splice, you would need a junction box before it.

Not sure if I picture this or not ... how would you even splice if the wire is cut right at the conduit entrance ??
Grrrr.

What about a butt splice made with a hydraulically-compressed crimp sleeve, and then covered in adhesive-lined shrink tube? Tell me that doesn't need accessibility.

User avatar
emtnut
Posts: 1492
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:21 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: feeder wire with cut neutral

Post by emtnut » Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:22 pm

Aaron wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:11 pm

Grrrr.
:lol:
Aaron wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:11 pm
What about a butt splice made with a hydraulically-compressed crimp sleeve, and then covered in adhesive-lined shrink tube? Tell me that doesn't need accessibility.
Well, that would be OK if it were in underground conduit :mrgreen:

300.15 is the article, and lists the exceptions.
I'm not fluent in NEC, but it doesn't look like you can.
~~ This space for rent ... apply within :mrgreen: ~~

User avatar
Aaron
Posts: 2717
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2015 4:03 pm
Location: St. Paul, MN

Re: feeder wire with cut neutral

Post by Aaron » Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:52 pm

emtnut wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:22 pm
Aaron wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:11 pm
What about a butt splice made with a hydraulically-compressed crimp sleeve, and then covered in adhesive-lined shrink tube? Tell me that doesn't need accessibility.
Well, that would be OK if it were in underground conduit :mrgreen:
Oh c'mon, seriously? If it's underground, it's inaccessible. And that's a far worse inaccessibility than being enclosed in conduit above ground!
emtnut wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:22 pm
300.15 is the article, and lists the exceptions.
I'm not fluent in NEC, but it doesn't look like you can.
The only sensible rationale I can come up with for a violation would NOT be safety. The splice in conduit would de-rate the conduit because it would subtract from its expected volume for conductor fill.

So it's a technical violation, with no impact on safety nor the integrity of the circuit.

User avatar
emtnut
Posts: 1492
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:21 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: feeder wire with cut neutral

Post by emtnut » Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:17 pm

Aaron wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:52 pm
emtnut wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:22 pm
Well, that would be OK if it were in underground conduit :mrgreen:
Oh c'mon, seriously? If it's underground, it's inaccessible. And that's a far worse inaccessibility than being enclosed in conduit above ground!
emtnut wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:22 pm
300.15 is the article, and lists the exceptions.
I'm not fluent in NEC, but it doesn't look like you can.
The only sensible rationale I can come up with for a violation would NOT be safety. The splice in conduit would de-rate the conduit because it would subtract from its expected volume for conductor fill.

So it's a technical violation, with no impact on safety nor the integrity of the circuit.
Agreed, not a safety thing. It's in the same category as not hiding a junction box. Just makes it hard to troubleshoot if there is a problem down the road.
~~ This space for rent ... apply within :mrgreen: ~~

diytexas
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:39 pm

Re: feeder wire with cut neutral

Post by diytexas » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:27 am

The cut is at the entrance to the box. So I can see the neutral. It's just barely poking out the conduit hole.

It's still about 2 or so feet out of the ground once I remove the conduit.

At the main service panel, it's 100% normal and connected to the neutral bar. So that's good

User avatar
emtnut
Posts: 1492
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:21 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: feeder wire with cut neutral

Post by emtnut » Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:20 am

diytexas wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:27 am
The cut is at the entrance to the box. So I can see the neutral. It's just barely poking out the conduit hole.

It's still about 2 or so feet out of the ground once I remove the conduit.

At the main service panel, it's 100% normal and connected to the neutral bar. So that's good
Hard to say without looking at it, but if you can lower the box a couple of inches that could work.
Or since you can remove the conduit, a small junction box would be easy to install.
~~ This space for rent ... apply within :mrgreen: ~~

diytexas
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:39 pm

Re: feeder wire with cut neutral

Post by diytexas » Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:45 am

Conduit can be removed. I was just going to replace all of it with whatever necessary.

I'd like to create a subpanel but not in that location. What's the best way to splice the feeder line another 20 feet?

It will exposed along the building. So apparently I need to use THNN in metal conduit. I'm just not sure how to best convert from feeder to THNN (in a junction box).

User avatar
emtnut
Posts: 1492
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:21 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: feeder wire with cut neutral

Post by emtnut » Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:08 pm

Not sure why you need 'metal' conduit.
If it is exposed to damage (ie in a laneway etc) you may need rigid. But for most times, PVC is OK.

Either way, just use a small (4x4) PVC box. Use a pvc box connector for the feeder. For #6 or #8 wires, I'd just use wirenuts to connect to the THHN.
From there use a PVC or EMT connector from the junction box to wherever you need to run the sub.
~~ This space for rent ... apply within :mrgreen: ~~

diytexas
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:39 pm

Re: feeder wire with cut neutral

Post by diytexas » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:11 pm

I read somewhere exposed conduit must be metal. This will run along a building side.

User avatar
emtnut
Posts: 1492
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:21 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: feeder wire with cut neutral

Post by emtnut » Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:35 am

Unless you have a local code requiring it, you can pretty much use PVC anywhere you would use EMT.

EMT tends to look better on a building (IMO). And you can paint it to match.
Since it's outside, you will need raintight connectors, which will probably make it more $$
If you're close to the ocean, the EMT will probably rust fairly fast thou, so PVC would be a better choice.

PVC can warp after time and doesn't look as nice. It's cheaper thou.
~~ This space for rent ... apply within :mrgreen: ~~

User avatar
Aaron
Posts: 2717
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2015 4:03 pm
Location: St. Paul, MN

Re: feeder wire with cut neutral

Post by Aaron » Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:49 pm

EMTnut promoting PVC. That's rich. :lol:

User avatar
emtnut
Posts: 1492
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:21 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: feeder wire with cut neutral

Post by emtnut » Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:29 pm

Aaron wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:49 pm
EMTnut promoting PVC. That's rich. :lol:
LMAO :lol: :lol:

well, I did say that EMT looked better :mrgreen:
~~ This space for rent ... apply within :mrgreen: ~~

Post Reply