Moving bathroom sink plumbing to the shared or common wall

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DPFAST
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Re: Moving bathroom sink plumbing to the shared or common wall

Post by DPFAST » Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:59 pm

A. Spruce wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:20 pm
If you are going to run the pipes inside the cabinet, you'll have to stub them out of the wall, repair the wall, then install the cabinet before you install the rest of the pipe. This way you can route them without affecting the drawers and won't have to fight pipes to set the cabinet in place.
This makes sense but I'm like an inch too high as of right now with the plumbing. Currently my plumbing comes out of the wall at exactly same height as the second drawer track. I need to lower the drain and the water pipes 2 inches down to be within 3 inches from the bottom of the second drawer track. Behind the drawers I have 2.5 inches space so I could run the drain pipe there the problem is one of the 2x4 on the way. I wonder if I could notch on the inside of both 2x4 to route the drain pipe that way. This way I would be able to run it behind the top of the second drawer through the right side of the cabinet and stub them out there instead of the wall. Does that make sense
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Re: Moving bathroom sink plumbing to the shared or common wall

Post by A. Spruce » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:06 pm

In all honesty, it would be a whole lot faster and easier to relocate everything down to the floor, extend it out under the cabinet and pop up through the bottom of the cabinet. With this plan you can do all your plumbing work and repair the wall, then all you'll have to do is drill a couple holes in the bottom of the cabinet to drop the cabinet into place. You will need 1 coupler, 1 tee, and 1 elbow to accomplish this. You've talked about switching to pex for the supply lines, that may not require any modification to the existing supply lines, though, I'd have to go back and look.

Another option, instead of modifying the plumbing at all, raise the cabinet by the inch or two you need for clearance, the shim can be covered by baseboard.
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Re: Moving bathroom sink plumbing to the shared or common wall

Post by Shannon » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:41 pm

I personally would stay out of the party wall, it is funny that the light box would be cut through it? If you really want to know the local code , your enforcement office is the place to ask.
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Re: Moving bathroom sink plumbing to the shared or common wall

Post by Shannon » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:46 pm

I see no problem in just cutting a chunk out of the corner 2x4s and running pipes through there. The 2x2 will just be there to screw the drywall to and is not structural . Infact you may be able to use two sweep 90s to make that adjustment from the existing position. It is tough for us to tell from pictures for sure.
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Re: Moving bathroom sink plumbing to the shared or common wall

Post by DPFAST » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:05 pm

Shannon wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:41 pm
I personally would stay out of the party wall, it is funny that the light box would be cut through it? If you really want to know the local code , your enforcement office is the place to ask.
I agree. I'll definitely stay away from digging into this wall.

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Re: Moving bathroom sink plumbing to the shared or common wall

Post by DPFAST » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:24 pm

Shannon wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:46 pm
I see no problem in just cutting a chunk out of the corner 2x4s and running pipes through there. The 2x2 will just be there to screw the drywall to and is not structural . Infact you may be able to use two sweep 90s to make that adjustment from the existing position. It is tough for us to tell from pictures for sure.
Thats the plan. Cutting into the inside of the stud on the right will give me enough room to run the 1 1/2 pipe behind the drawer. Unfortunately I don't see way to run 2 sweep 90s from existing position as the vertical pipe is only 4 inches behind the 2x4 stud and 2 inches to the left of the stud so not enough room. Instead, I am thinking to replace the existing sweep tee with another one but directed little more to the right so then the short sweep 45 may do the trick. Besides, I think I need to lower the position of the sweep tee on the vent pipe to be able to maintain the 1/2 drop and be also able to fit under the drawer track that is located at 17" above the floor. On the other hand I just found out that the water pipes are not going all the way to the attic, I am so stupid. They are capped about foot above the 1/4 pipes connections. Instead of buying 3/4 to 1/2 tee I need a 3/4 to 1/2 90 angle for my PEX pipe so then I can maybe run both water lines under the cabinet instead of through the cabinet. Are WATTS connectors any good vs Sharkbite? I purchased couple of them but they don't have the plastic thing for the PEX pipe. I know that the copper doesn't require it but PEX? I'll try battle this tomorrow as today I wasted the whole day on thinking and planning.
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Re: Moving bathroom sink plumbing to the shared or common wall

Post by Shannon » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:33 am

I have to say I have never really used them or looked at them. Checkem out on line and see ,I'm sure they are spec'ed for pex pipes.
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Re: Moving bathroom sink plumbing to the shared or common wall

Post by A. Spruce » Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:32 am

DPFAST wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:24 pm
On the other hand I just found out that the water pipes are not going all the way to the attic, I am so stupid. They are capped about foot above the 1/4 pipes connections. Instead of buying 3/4 to 1/2 tee I need a 3/4 to 1/2 90 angle for my PEX pipe so then I can maybe run both water lines under the cabinet instead of through the cabinet.
Those 12" extensions are called water hammer arrestors, you will want to keep them in place or else you're pipes are going to bang around in the walls when you turn the water on/off. On the bright side, this will make modifying the pipes MUCH easier, as you're basically working at the end of the pipe, not in the middle of it where the pipes are captive and unmovable.
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Re: Moving bathroom sink plumbing to the shared or common wall

Post by DPFAST » Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:12 pm

A. Spruce wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:32 am
DPFAST wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:24 pm
On the other hand I just found out that the water pipes are not going all the way to the attic, I am so stupid. They are capped about foot above the 1/4 pipes connections. Instead of buying 3/4 to 1/2 tee I need a 3/4 to 1/2 90 angle for my PEX pipe so then I can maybe run both water lines under the cabinet instead of through the cabinet.
Those 12" extensions are called water hammer arrestors, you will want to keep them in place or else you're pipes are going to bang around in the walls when you turn the water on/off. On the bright side, this will make modifying the pipes MUCH easier, as you're basically working at the end of the pipe, not in the middle of it where the pipes are captive and unmovable.
Not sure what to do now? I was ready to just cut the pipes above the floor and install a 90 degree Sharkbite to transition from the 3/4 pipe into a 1/2 inch PEX to run it under the cabinet. What if I do that and just install some hold bracket (or feel the hole around the pipes) around the floor hole where the plumbing is coming through from the bottom? Would that work? Also these two Hammer Arrestors are welded to a horizontal copper bracket that is connected to two 2x4's on both sides of the water pipes. This does not make them very movable at all.

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Re: Moving bathroom sink plumbing to the shared or common wall

Post by A. Spruce » Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:28 pm

DPFAST wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:12 pm
Not sure what to do now? I was ready to just cut the pipes above the floor and install a 90 degree Sharkbite to transition from the 3/4 pipe into a 1/2 inch PEX to run it under the cabinet. What if I do that and just install some hold bracket (or feel the hole around the pipes) around the floor hole where the plumbing is coming through from the bottom? Would that work? Also these two Hammer Arrestors are welded to a horizontal copper bracket that is connected to two 2x4's on both sides of the water pipes. This does not make them very movable at all.
Hammer arrestors don't allow flex in the pipe, they work by holding an air pocket inside the pipe. The air pocket provides a damper against the sudden start/stop of the flow of water. It is this sudden start/stop that causes vibrations to be sent throughout the pipe and bang it against the framing, whether it's stapled to the side of a stud or passing through the middle of one. You can buy arrestors that can be installed under the sink, but it's a whole lot cheaper and easier to just make your own, as you can see, it's simply a vertical length of pipe above the joint.
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Re: Moving bathroom sink plumbing to the shared or common wall

Post by DPFAST » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:05 pm

A. Spruce wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:28 pm
DPFAST wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:12 pm
Not sure what to do now? I was ready to just cut the pipes above the floor and install a 90 degree Sharkbite to transition from the 3/4 pipe into a 1/2 inch PEX to run it under the cabinet. What if I do that and just install some hold bracket (or feel the hole around the pipes) around the floor hole where the plumbing is coming through from the bottom? Would that work? Also these two Hammer Arrestors are welded to a horizontal copper bracket that is connected to two 2x4's on both sides of the water pipes. This does not make them very movable at all.
Hammer arrestors don't allow flex in the pipe, they work by holding an air pocket inside the pipe. The air pocket provides a damper against the sudden start/stop of the flow of water. It is this sudden start/stop that causes vibrations to be sent throughout the pipe and bang it against the framing, whether it's stapled to the side of a stud or passing through the middle of one. You can buy arrestors that can be installed under the sink, but it's a whole lot cheaper and easier to just make your own, as you can see, it's simply a vertical length of pipe above the joint.
SO of course I didn't listen and now I hear the bang when turning the hot water (Only) off downstairs in the kitchen and in the shower upstairs in the bathroom where the new lines were put in. What should I do now? Where should I install this Arrestor? Can without the arrestors the bang damage the plumbing and cause leaks?

I did the plumbing already little messy but this glue holds soo fast that I didn't have much time and mainly enough room to get everything aligned. In the end the drain line is where I want it.

I am still not sure where I want these water lines to to go? Under the cabinet I am not having enough room to get the PEX to properly angle down to fit the 4 inch space under the cabinet. Another way would be to fit them behind the drawers within the 2 3/4 room i guess?

For now I finished the day by testing the lines for any leaks. So far everything is dry. I wonder for how long should I have these lines pressurised ? Would overnight be enough? Thanks guys so very much and I'm counting on your help

Any idea why all the pictures taken vertically are always displaying sideways? So frustrating!
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Re: Moving bathroom sink plumbing to the shared or common wall

Post by A. Spruce » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:19 pm

For the arrestors, you have two options, change the elbow back to a tee and install them in the wall or buy arrestors and install them under the sink.

You won't likely do any damage to leave the pipes knocking, but you're not doing them any good either, let alone the annoying banging they're going to make every time water is run.

My best guess on the pix is that they are registering as landscape (horizontal) instead of portrait (vertical). A lot of people have had this problem, and I suspect it has to do with the settings on your phone/camera. I have not had images go sideways unintentionally, using a vid/stills camera and desktop photo editor.
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Re: Moving bathroom sink plumbing to the shared or common wall

Post by DPFAST » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:59 pm

A. Spruce wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:19 pm
For the arrestors, you have two options, change the elbow back to a tee and install them in the wall or buy arrestors and install them under the sink.

You won't likely do any damage to leave the pipes knocking, but you're not doing them any good either, let alone the annoying banging they're going to make every time water is run.

My best guess on the pix is that they are registering as landscape (horizontal) instead of portrait (vertical). A lot of people have had this problem, and I suspect it has to do with the settings on your phone/camera. I have not had images go sideways unintentionally, using a vid/stills camera and desktop photo editor.
I think I have to do that. I still have the 3/4-3/4-1/2 tee by SHarkbite. So I would just put the 3/4 copper pipe maybe 12 inches long capped by Sharkbite cap or buy this little thing

https://www.amazon.com/Everflow-Supplie ... r+arrestor Would that work?

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Re: Moving bathroom sink plumbing to the shared or common wall

Post by Shannon » Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:16 pm

Yes any of those options you mentioned would work fine. I believe shark bite has arrestor/Ts as well but they will be costly.
The picture thing will be something in your picture settings like Spruce said. You may have to turn them in your photos first then install? At least in yours I can tell what we are looking at sometimes things get posted here and I can hardly understand what I'm looking at? :evil: :evil: :lol:
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Re: Moving bathroom sink plumbing to the shared or common wall

Post by DPFAST » Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:59 pm

Few more quick this time questions;

1. Why the Hammer Bum is only on Hot water pipe? Also, I placed some of the insulation laying around into the hole around the hot water pipe and now I have very little noise but still heard when listening so I will definitely have to put the Arrestors. I may get couple of 3/4 x2 feet pipes and couple of caps and try soldering tomorrow. I'd like to learn how to solder a copper fittings and that would be a good way to do it. Would 12 inches arrestor be enough? I read somewhere that 18 inches is the way to go. Whats your take on it?

2. The Sharkbite fitting went on the hot water copper pipe very easily and spins around like it supposed to but the one on the cold water pipe I could not get on fully. I tried, removed and tried again. Even went to HD and got two more 90 elbow. Eventually got it on but the fitting is not spinning at all. I mean very hard to spin it around vs the other one on the hot water and spins normally. I wonder if will be having problems with this fitting despite being dry for now.

Thanks again

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Re: Moving bathroom sink plumbing to the shared or common wall

Post by A. Spruce » Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:14 pm

Arrestors should be on both pipes. 12" is the standard, longer isn't going to hurt and may even help keep them from becoming water logged, which does happen from time to time. Easy fix, should it happen.

You may have had a burr on the cold pipe or it might be slightly out of round. It doesn't take much for fittings to bind.
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Re: Moving bathroom sink plumbing to the shared or common wall

Post by Shannon » Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:10 pm

Did you remove the plastic insert on the end that goes over the copper pipes. They are needed on copper and sometimes bind when installing fitting. I have never seen a shark bite not rotate on the pipe? Make sure it is on all the way.
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Re: Moving bathroom sink plumbing to the shared or common wall

Post by DPFAST » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:29 am

Shannon wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:10 pm
Did you remove the plastic insert on the end that goes over the copper pipes. They are needed on copper and sometimes bind when installing fitting. I have never seen a shark bite not rotate on the pipe? Make sure it is on all the way.
No I did not. I actually removed the white plastic insert on the hot water line and this one worked great but I never touched the outside inserts at all. On the cold water line, first I removed the white insert part and could not get the fitting down allaway to the 1 inch mark I did, so I removed it and tried it again couple of times finally got it down but it did not wanna spin easily like the Hot water one so I removed it again and exchanged it at HD for another fitting. This time I left the white insert in and after pushing it in for few times I was able to get it down to the mark but it also does not want to spin freely like the hot water one so maybe, just maybe the pipe itself is out of round? I went through 3 connectors and all gave me an issue with cold water pipe only00000, so must be an issue with the pipe, isn't it? When I force it to spin I can hear some kind of friction.

Overnight still no leaks on any of the connections. Since I will be changing them to the Tee to install the Arrestors I'll try it again. Not sure how to go about it? Can one of this fittings be trusted in the long run despite not leaking overnight at least????


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Re: Moving bathroom sink plumbing to the shared or common wall

Post by DPFAST » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:33 am

A. Spruce wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:14 pm
Arrestors should be on both pipes. 12" is the standard, longer isn't going to hurt and may even help keep them from becoming water logged, which does happen from time to time. Easy fix, should it happen.

If I install the 18 inch long arrestors should they be mounted to both 2x4 on each side or can they be left free mounted only to the fitting?

You may have had a burr on the cold pipe or it might be slightly out of round. It doesn't take much for fittings to bind.
I mite of use little 150 grid send paper to clean the edge of the pipe. Would that be too harsh for Sharkbite?

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Re: Moving bathroom sink plumbing to the shared or common wall

Post by A. Spruce » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:59 am

Follow the manufacturer's instructions, I say they should be secured, if you leave them loose, on pex, they may have the tendency to lay over and bang on the framing.

150g sandpaper shouldn't have been a problem, if there was no burr, the pipe is probably slightly out of round.
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Re: Moving bathroom sink plumbing to the shared or common wall

Post by DPFAST » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:45 am

OK, so I just did my first copper soldering. I soldered an end cap to the 2 feet pipe. I am not sure if from the picture you can tell me if it was done correctly but in the end I'll find out after connecting to the system. It looks like the main thing you gotta do is to put liberal amount of the flux and then wipe the excess off from the outside of the surface so the solder stays as much inside where the flux is as possible, is that correct?
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Re: Moving bathroom sink plumbing to the shared or common wall

Post by Shannon » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:21 am

DPFAST wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:29 am

Overnight still no leaks on any of the connections. Since I will be changing them to the Tee to install the Arrestors I'll try it again. Not sure how to go about it? Can one of this fittings be trusted in the long run despite not leaking overnight at least????

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You will be fine. The main thing with Push fit connectors is being sure they are inserted fully. Sounds like you have that .
I have never had a push fit not wanna spin but maybe the pipe is out of shape like you and Spruce suggested? Maybe when using your copper cutter you forced it to tight trying to cut it off ,thus squeezing the pipe and distorting it? I say if its not leaking since yesterday it is fine but I would avoid trying to rotate it any more if you can.
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Re: Moving bathroom sink plumbing to the shared or common wall

Post by Shannon » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:24 am

Use liberal amount of flux on pipe line fitting on and apply heat to opposite side of fitting from where you apply the solder. Don't worry about rubbing flux off before soldering ,you may just contaminate the surface again. It will liquify as you heat and excess will drip off or liquefy .
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Re: Moving bathroom sink plumbing to the shared or common wall

Post by A. Spruce » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:43 pm

Nothing wrong with those joints. Yes, you use a liberal amount of flux, it's cheap and ensures a good joint. When the pipe cools, wipe it down to remove any excess flux left after the soldering. It is acidic and can cause corrosion and pin holes to develop over time.
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Re: Moving bathroom sink plumbing to the shared or common wall

Post by DPFAST » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:39 pm

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So I am having a hard time to lower the water pipes to the floor so they enter the side of the cabinet at not more than 4 inches from the floor, thats how much room is under the toe kick. Since using a PEX pipes and the water lines in the wall are only 10-12 inches away from the back wall of the cabinet, I am having difficulties bending them so they would enter the cabinet toe kick at 90 angle. Would it be easier to solder copper pipes from the main water lines, to the right and then turn 90, go through the wall into the toe kick couple of inches, install then onto it the shut off valve (Sharkbite) and then run PEX from it under the toe kick to the inside of the cabinet to another shut off valve to which the faucet lines would be attached. This way, inside the wall I would have saled connections and the Sharkbite would be under the cabinet easily accessible in case of emergency. Also, if I ever wanted to change the vanity all I would have to do is shut the first valve and pull the cabinets out. I don't know but after today I dont really fear soldering that much. I am just not really sure how to best run the copper pipes and does that actually makes any sense??

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Re: Moving bathroom sink plumbing to the shared or common wall

Post by A. Spruce » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:10 pm

I would run a screw through the sill plate in the wall, down into the subfloor. Use a screw that is only as long as the 2x and subfloor is thick, any more than that and you run the risk of catching a pipe or wire that's run under the floor that you can't see. Do this on either side of the supply lines, then cut the sill plate out, this gives you an extra space to shorten your supplies to get them down under the cabinet.

Because I'd put the hammer arrestors in the wall, I'd solder a tee and the arrestors there and run copper under the cabinet. The great thing with copper is that you can assemble all of this BEFORE you ever start soldering, so you can completely locate everything exactly where you want it.

Probably the best way to handle the entry into the cabinet is to notch the left foot over the supply lines and then notch the back (assuming there is no back on the cabinet), this will allow you to set the cabinet in place over the completed lines and not have big ugly holes in the bottom of the cabinet to accommodate the angle stops. Another option is to drill holes just big enough for the capped lines to enter the bottom of the cabinet, once the cabinet is in place, you can cut the caps off and install the angle stops and caulk around the pipes to seal the holes. You probably will have to go with this option due to the construction of the cabinet and not being able to notch the back.

A modification of this second option would be to solder male threads to the supplies and cap them, this will require larger holes to be drilled in the cabinet floor, but you will be able to replace the cabinet later without having to modify plumbing, just turn off water, cap the lines, pull the cabinet, install new cabinet, new angle stops, and you're good to go again.
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Re: Moving bathroom sink plumbing to the shared or common wall

Post by DPFAST » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:57 pm

A. Spruce wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:10 pm
I would run a screw through the sill plate in the wall, down into the subfloor. Use a screw that is only as long as the 2x and subfloor is thick, any more than that and you run the risk of catching a pipe or wire that's run under the floor that you can't see. Do this on either side of the supply lines, then cut the sill plate out, this gives you an extra space to shorten your supplies to get them down under the cabinet.

I am sorry men, but I am not able to picture this at all. I just don't' have enough experience to know what you are talking about. Especially the metal plate down to subfloor, etc.

Because I'd put the hammer arrestors in the wall, I'd solder a tee and the arrestors there and run copper under the cabinet. The great thing with copper is that you can assemble all of this BEFORE you ever start soldering, so you can completely locate everything exactly where you want it.

Probably the best way to handle the entry into the cabinet is to notch the left foot over the supply lines and then notch the back (assuming there is no back on the cabinet), this will allow you to set the cabinet in place over the completed lines and not have big ugly holes in the bottom of the cabinet to accommodate the angle stops. Another option is to drill holes just big enough for the capped lines to enter the bottom of the cabinet, once the cabinet is in place, you can cut the caps off and install the angle stops and caulk around the pipes to seal the holes. You probably will have to go with this option due to the construction of the cabinet and not being able to notch the back.

A modification of this second option would be to solder male threads to the supplies and cap them, this will require larger holes to be drilled in the cabinet floor, but you will be able to replace the cabinet later without having to modify plumbing, just turn off water, cap the lines, pull the cabinet, install new cabinet, new angle stops, and you're good to go again.
It all sounds very difficult unless I am just not understanding it. I just can't picture any of it, sorry. I will read this again tomorrow morning so maybe after a good night sleep I'll picture some it. Thanks Spruce so much

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Re: Moving bathroom sink plumbing to the shared or common wall

Post by A. Spruce » Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:38 am

DPFAST wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:57 pm
I am sorry men, but I am not able to picture this at all. I just don't' have enough experience to know what you are talking about. Especially the metal plate down to subfloor, etc.
The 2x4 on the floor under the vertical 2x4's, that is the sill plate. If you run a screw through the plate into the subfloor on either side of the pipes, you can remove that section around the pipes, which gives you more space to get closer to the floor.
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With this portion of the sill plate removed, you can get closer to the floor with your fittings. DO NOT use screws that are any longer than the thickness of the plate and subfloor, probably about a 2" screw will suffice.
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Shannon
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Re: Moving bathroom sink plumbing to the shared or common wall

Post by Shannon » Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:11 am

Personally myself I would forget about using the pipe brackets forming the 90 degree bend in pipe and just use sharkbite 90s in the corner. So notch out the corner framing at pipe height down to plate, install short pieces of Pex from each arrestor towards the corner , install a 90 fitting on each pipe and then another pex lengtb to get to where you need to be in the cabinet. Install a shark bite / water line valve on each pipe. These pipes can then fit behind the drawers above the bottom of the cabinet. Just notch the side of cabinet to allow access to 90s so you can insert the longer pieces of pex once cabinet is in place.
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Shannon
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Re: Moving bathroom sink plumbing to the shared or common wall

Post by Shannon » Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:13 am

If there is no back on the cabinet you can notch the gable so the pipes slide in as you install cabinet then you don’t have to try and get the Pex inserted in shark bites after cabinet installed.
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