Replace brickmould around door

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Aaron
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Replace brickmould around door

Post by Aaron » Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:53 pm

Hi guys, I'm gonna replace this crappy weathered brick mould with the PVC kind. Is it just a matter of prying this old stuff off and cutting/mitering to fit the new stuff on? Any caulks or sealants needed? Anything weird issues with J channel or drip cap that I have to worry about?
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Re: Replace brickmould around door

Post by Shannon » Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:55 pm

A couple little quirks,just pry it off and install the new PVC.But you will want to apply a good exterior sealant between it and the wall sheathing cause water will get past that vinyl siding J.Also if you want to you can use a PVC cement to glue the mitred corners together, not a big deal though.
If the wood was not already rotted I would just cap it with a nice painted metal or Aluminum.
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Re: Replace brickmould around door

Post by Aaron » Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:06 pm

Can you just use the same primer and cement you use for PVC plumbing joints? I'd imagine?

Should or can it be painted with exterior paint? I mean the PVC is white already so it's probably okay.

I'll do the sealant behind the mould, I would bet dollars to donuts my builder didn't do that in the first place. You put sealant between the Typar and the moulding?

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Re: Replace brickmould around door

Post by A. Spruce » Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:27 am

If it's actually PVC, then normal pipe primer/glue will suffice.

PVC trim should be primer/paint compatible, I would treat it the same as wood, while it doesn't necessarily need a primer, primer helps to create a good bonding surface, as well as blend the new paint into old paint.

I will defer caulking against vinyl trim to Shannon, as I don't work with the stuff. I've never seen vinyl caulked to anything, but that doesn't mean that is the correct way of doing things. I would absolutely caulk the trim to the door jamb, and IMHO, it should also be caulked to the J molding, but again, I don't work with the stuff.
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Re: Replace brickmould around door

Post by Shannon » Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:10 am

I cut the house wrap back a bit from the opening and run a bead of caulk down the edge to seal the moisture from getting past the BM into the opening. Vinyl siding is not water proof.
The vinyl BM does not need painting unless you are wanting a different colour.
Use a clear PVC glue .
I hate the look of J channel caulked to the doors and windows and I have never seen a siding manufacture call for it.If you can get it right back at the back and its not seen, go for it ,otherwise i would not do it.
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Re: Replace brickmould around door

Post by Aaron » Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:57 am

So cut the house wrap with a utility knife right at the edge of the J (using the J as a guide), and run a nice tight bead of sealant in the corners where the J meets the sheathing.

Wait for that to dry, then just attach the new brickmould right to the exposed sheathing bordering the doorframe.

No sealant application behind the brickmould? I'm not even sure caulking it would be a good idea, since it would be like gluing it down so it couldn't be easily removed in the future?

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Re: Replace brickmould around door

Post by Aaron » Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:30 am

Just watched the "install an exterior door" video, looks like you do put silicone right behind the brickmould. I really doubt my garage builder installed that membrane around the door frame over the house wrap! Wow, that is very good sealing against water intrusion. I guess I'll see once I get the old brickmould off, but I really doubt it.

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Re: Replace brickmould around door

Post by Shannon » Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:50 am

Yup that video gives you the idea of what I would do.
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Re: Replace brickmould around door

Post by Aaron » Sat May 11, 2019 7:54 pm

Finally getting around to this. I pried off the old brickmould. I couldn't believe how poor the quality that moulding was, it all broke apart into random-length segments that were spliced together! Some of the segments were only like 8" long. I don't think there was any piece longer than 36" which may have been the horizonal piece over the door.

Menards quality!!! :roll:

So I scraped away all the dry-rot around the base of the door sides, the right side was worse than the left. I'm thinking I should or could use Bondo epoxy filler at the base. But meh. I just sprayed everything with some Bulls Eye 1-2-3 and am applying a nice bright white enamel exterior paint.

I found a vinyl brickmould kit at Home Depot for like $22. It has three long pre-mitered pieces for the sides and top of a standard sliding patio door. So I will only need to trim one piece for the top of the door. That'll give me some margin for screwing up—hopefully not!

I think I may pre-drill some holes before I pound in galvanized nails. I'm a little paranoid of splitting the door frame.

I don't plan to paint the PVC.

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Re: Replace brickmould around door

Post by A. Spruce » Sat May 11, 2019 8:14 pm

Aaron wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 7:54 pm
Finally getting around to this. I pried off the old brickmould. I couldn't believe how poor the quality that moulding was, it all broke apart into random-length segments that were spliced together! Some of the segments were only like 8" long. I don't think there was any piece longer than 36" which may have been the horizonal piece over the door.

Menards quality!!! :roll:
Don't get too upset with Menards, I don't think I've seen a solid stick of paint grade trim in my 30 years in the biz, it's all finger joined pieces, the reason for this is two fold, first, it removes all the knots and defects from the finished product, second, it allows for higher utilization of raw materials that would otherwise get chipped up and burned or sent to pulp. The end result is a piece of trim that is less inclined to twist or warp while on the shelf.

If you've bought any paint grade interior moldings, you'll see that they are done the same way.
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Re: Replace brickmould around door

Post by Aaron » Sat May 11, 2019 8:24 pm

Interesting, I guess I didn't know that was standard practice. It seemed to me more like salvaging trim remnants more than anything. I guess I can get behind doing that for interior trim as it wouldn't be subject to the elements.

Well it's all moot anyway because these exterior doors are available with full composite framing now which is super nice. Had that been available at the time I built I would have for sure gone that route.

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Re: Replace brickmould around door

Post by A. Spruce » Sat May 11, 2019 8:31 pm

Early on in my career I felt the same way, cheaper product, but when you start understanding the benefits a little more, you'll see that it isn't necessarily a "cheap" product.

I mentioned that they remove knots and defects, knots have a high tendency to pop out when they dry out, you can't nail or screw through them, they're hard to drill/predrill through, and they bleed through your paint. I can't explain that last one, but I can assure you that if you simply slap some primer and paint over a knot, it's going to darken/bleed through, you have to put multiple coats of primer over them to "seal" them in, then you can paint without problems. Not having knots in a piece of trim is a good thing. 8-)
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Re: Replace brickmould around door

Post by Aaron » Sat May 11, 2019 8:37 pm

Yes that is very true with the knots. I'm installing 1x4 around the house for baseboards ("mop boards"), and the knots stain right through both the primer and topcoat. Noticed that about 18-24 months after the fact... The solution is to use that BIN white-pigmented shellac. Or perhaps normal shellac, with 1-2-3 over that, then topcoat latex over that.

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Re: Replace brickmould around door

Post by A. Spruce » Sat May 11, 2019 9:04 pm

BIN will suffice, it's a "heavy duty" stain blocker/sealer, and it is also a really good primer base for any top coat you want to apply, so no need to cover BIN with 123 before top coating. 8-)

Now, if you are brushing or rolling the BIN, then one or two coats will suffice, if you are spraying it, then you'll need 4 or 5 coats before you get a thick enough layer to seal the stain/knot. Additionally, BIN has a sheen to it that will change the appearance of the paint applied over it, resulting in shiny spots or shadows under the paint. The cure for this is to apply as many coats as necessary to seal in the stained/knot areas, then apply a single coat over everything, then apply your top coat. If you're using gloss paint, you can probably just spot prime with BIN, flat and semi-gloss will not fair well over spots of BIN, or any primer for that matter.
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Re: Replace brickmould around door

Post by Aaron » Sat May 11, 2019 9:18 pm

I wonder if 1-2-3 between spots of BIN and the top coat would eliminate the shadow/flashing problem you get with just BIN alone?

I've never gotten a spray can of BIN before, I always just get the quart-size cans of the regular primer. Though the spray can would save cleanup, I guess.

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Re: Replace brickmould around door

Post by A. Spruce » Sat May 11, 2019 10:41 pm

It doesn't matter what you use, it matters that there is an uneven coat/barrier under the top coat.

Look at it this way, you've got 10 year old paint on the wall, you paint one spot in the middle of it and walk away. That spot is going to be vastly different than the rest of the wall. Now, because this spot doesn't match, you decide to paint the whole wall, including the fresh patch of paint. Because that spot has already been sealed, the new paint will "float" on top, while the paint on the rest of the wall is going to soak into the surface, this is going to result in a shiny spot where there is a double coat of paint. The same thing happens when you spot prime something, whether it's a baseboard or a wall, wherever you apply primer, it's going to soak in and seal that spot, leaving the untouched areas porous. This affects how the next layer of paint is absorbed and results in flashes (shiny spots) and shadows (dull spots).

This is why when you spot prime a wall or trim, you follow up with a single coat of primer over everything before applying your top coat. On trim, spot priming will seal knots or repaired areas, the next coat of primer over everything seals everything evenly, when the top coat goes on, it will result in an even coverage and luster when done.

Because you're using a "stain sealer" type primer and knots are tough to seal in, you'll need to coat the knots a few times to have enough of a barrier to keep them from bleeding through. When done with that, one more coat of primer over everything will give you a good base for your top coat.

FWIW, 123 is a stain sealer, it just isn't as aggressive as BIN, so 123 is great for light stains or covering colors you're trying to hide, such as repainting dark walls to lighter colors. Bin is more aggressive in the sense that it creates a tighter membrane over the surface, thereby sealing more stubborn stains more effectively.

Helpful?
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Re: Replace brickmould around door

Post by Aaron » Sun May 12, 2019 4:19 am

A. Spruce wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 10:41 pm
Helpful?
Yes, thanks! Good advice. One thing I can say about both of us is that we're fans of priming. lol

I also am an advocate of oil-based paint. For metal it's necessary, it's what I used to paint that door. It's a Rust-Oleum "High Performance" enamel that I rolled on. I will say it seems a smoother and harder finish than normal "Rust Stop" Rust-Oleum, and I think it dried faster too.

I used the same paint for wood trim around my front door on my front porch. I replaced that trim with some pine boards several years ago. I primed it with an alkyd-based primer and put three top coats of the enamel on. It's very glossy and hard and a nice bright white. It looks great.

Though I used a waterborne acrylic enamel this time for this exterior garage door. Not quite as hard as the oil but I daresay just as durable and equivalent in appearance. It also has MUCH easier cleanup and costs less to buy.

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Re: Replace brickmould around door

Post by A. Spruce » Sun May 12, 2019 10:49 am

I'm a big fan of doing things correctly and to have the level of finish that I'm looking for.

I'm not a fan of paint/primer in-one, as I feel that it compromises both the primer and the paint quality by mixing two products made for different reasons. Primers are made to soak in and stabilize the surface as well as seal it, while paints are a top coat, they sit on top of the surface. By mixing the two, you're not getting the most desirable properties of either. I'm not saying that there isn't a time and place for 2-in-1, just that I'm not a fan of it.
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Re: Replace brickmould around door

Post by Aaron » Sun May 12, 2019 11:25 am

You know more than I do in this area.

I intuitively think that a 2-in-1 paint and primer would be a lousy primer but a very good top-coat if it's applied to a properly primed surface. Because it's "trying" to do a primer's job, the 2-in-1 would have very good adhesion that will be even better if the surface has a good prime coat already.

I've been satisfied with the appearance of the 2-in-1 finish but I absolutely will prime first because I don't trust any topcoat paint that purports to also prime. Lol

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Re: Replace brickmould around door

Post by A. Spruce » Sun May 12, 2019 11:54 am

Shannon likes 2-in-1, uses it right over bare drywall and says it works well. But, then, he also likes Behr, so . . . :|

:mrgreen:
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Re: Replace brickmould around door

Post by Shannon » Sun May 12, 2019 12:13 pm

Nope never used Behr ever.
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Re: Replace brickmould around door

Post by A. Spruce » Sun May 12, 2019 1:04 pm

Hmm, I thought you used it. Must be that other guy I was think'n about. :mrgreen: :lol:
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Re: Replace brickmould around door

Post by Aaron » Sun May 12, 2019 8:28 pm

If anyone is going to do the best 2-in-1, it's gonna be Benjamin Moore. That company makes the best paint. Or perhaps they're tied with Sherwin-Williams.

I admit to buying paint from Menards. (Duck and cover!) They sell PPG which has served me fairly well, at least in my inexperienced opinion.

If I had a McMansion or if I were painting for someone else I'd use the premium stuff. Or unless my Dad bought it for me, he always gets dealer paint, but he's a retired county employee. lol

I can attest to Behr being crap, though. I always thought it's way too thick, like brushing or spreading pancake batter or something.

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Re: Replace brickmould around door

Post by A. Spruce » Sun May 12, 2019 8:44 pm

I've been very happy with any of the major dealer brand paints, Behr, on the other hand, I've never had a good experience with any of their products, be it paint, concrete stain, etc. It doesn't cure, it never hardens, spatters like crazy during application, it's just garbage!

My go-to brand is Kelly Moore, mostly due to proximity and level of service. Sherwin Williams has decent paint, but their employees lack the will to live, let alone be helpful. Dunn Edwards gets high marks for customer service. I've used Ben Moore, but not often. I couldn't even tell you where a BM dealer was in these parts.

Back in my work days, when Lumberjack/payless cashways/furrows was around, they carried Valspar, which was always a good budget brand that was both workable and durable. I used Valspar when budget was a concern and KM when top quality mattered.
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Re: Replace brickmould around door

Post by Aaron » Sun May 12, 2019 8:48 pm

Got the new brickmould attached!

I used a whole tube of silcone in the corners of where the J meets the housewrap. Then the brickmould seemed to seat itself nicely in that silicone, on that outside edge.

The old wood brickmould was notched around the bottom plate of the door but I found this vinyl kind "wanted" to go to the left and right of it and it kept the jamb reveal consistent so I went with it.

I pre-drilled and the nails sunk in beautifully straight. The drill bit was probably 1/32" narrower than the nails I used. The brickmould is deep and the bit probably only went into about 1/8" of door jamb so the nails still have good grab.

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I'm so happy that old rotted trim is gone, it's been really bugging me.

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Re: Replace brickmould around door

Post by A. Spruce » Sun May 12, 2019 8:55 pm

looks good. 8-)
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Re: Replace brickmould around door

Post by Aaron » Sun May 12, 2019 9:50 pm

A. Spruce wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 8:55 pm
looks good. 8-)
Looks good? It looks like a normal damn door, and that's what makes me happy! :lol:
A. Spruce wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 8:44 pm
I've been very happy with any of the major dealer brand paints, Behr, on the other hand, I've never had a good experience with any of their products, be it paint, concrete stain, etc. It doesn't cure, it never hardens, spatters like crazy during application, it's just garbage!
Wow, so their other stuff is lousy too. Heh. People seem to love their products too. I don't get it. Consumer Reports even lauds it!

Buddy of mine bought a gallon of it and I helped him paint his kitchen. It was total crap. I improved it a little bit by thinning it with Floetrol but you really shouldn't have to do that. Then it just never really cured, a week later it still had a "gummy" texture to it, like you could totally dig your fingernail into it and peel it right off the wall.
My go-to brand is Kelly Moore, mostly due to proximity and level of service.
Kelly Moore must be a west coast brand. Never heard of it. Nor Dunn Edwards.

We have a paint dealer called Hirshfield's, heard of them? They're a major dealer here in Minn.
Sherwin Williams has decent paint, but their employees lack the will to live, let alone be helpful. Dunn Edwards gets high marks for customer service. I've used Ben Moore, but not often. I couldn't even tell you where a BM dealer was in these parts.
My neighborhood hardware store used to stock Benjamin Moore, they're a Hardware Hank outlet. They now sell Valspar I think. Ace carries Benjamin Moore, I think, though I believe I heard Ace's private label paint is very decent, I think it's called Beauti-Tone or something. They have excellent customer service, I love hardware stores.
Back in my work days, when Lumberjack/payless cashways/furrows was around, they carried Valspar, which was always a good budget brand that was both workable and durable. I used Valspar when budget was a concern and KM when top quality mattered.
Yep, our old Knox also carried Valspar.

We used to have Knox, which got assimilated into the Payless Cashways junta. That store subsequently went to $hit. I remember you said Lumberjack was decent. Perhaps they were the resistance.

Lowe's sells Valspar. At least they do here in these parts. Valspar actually has a huge operations building over in Minneapolis. I think Sherwin-Williams recently acquired Valspar, there was worry they were going to close that building.

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Re: Replace brickmould around door

Post by A. Spruce » Mon May 13, 2019 12:34 am

We were just talking in another thread about polyurethane, my favorite was McCloskies, which doesn't seem to be around anymore. This is relevant because valspar showed up under the umbrella of brands connected to Man-O-War, McCloskies, and others. In the end, use whatever brand floats your boat! :mrgreen:

Yeah, Lumberjack was great! They always had just about anything I ever needed, and if they didn't, they could get it quickly. Decent products, great service, from every location I visited, not just my home location. The best thing was that they understood how to work with contractors, unlike Evil Orange and the rest of the big boxes that don't give a crap about anyone, they're only interested in how high they can jack up the bill.
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Re: Replace brickmould around door

Post by Aaron » Mon May 13, 2019 2:06 am

A. Spruce wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 12:34 am
We were just talking in another thread about polyurethane, my favorite was McCloskies, which doesn't seem to be around anymore.
I remember McCloskey. I got rid of a very old can I had from a very long time ago... You know, all those cans that contain very small amounts of the product, sitting in the basement for years before that you sadly have to eventually collect a box full of it and haul to hazardous waste.
This is relevant because valspar showed up under the umbrella of brands connected to Man-O-War, McCloskies, and others. In the end, use whatever brand floats your boat! :mrgreen:
Man-O-War sounds familiar. I bet the old Knox store carried it.

I had my upstairs maple floors sanded and redone, and my guy used a polyurethane from a company called Bona. I had never heard if it at the time. He said it was a professional brand known for its use on basketball courts.

Now I see the Bona name in the stores, but only as just cleaner for hardwood, I'm not sure I've seen varnish yet.
Yeah, Lumberjack was great! They always had just about anything I ever needed, and if they didn't, they could get it quickly. Decent products, great service, from every location I visited, not just my home location. The best thing was that they understood how to work with contractors, unlike Evil Orange and the rest of the big boxes that don't give a crap about anyone, they're only interested in how high they can jack up the bill.
Menards is pretty decent with contractors from what I've heard. They open the store at 5:30 a.m. just for contractors to get their materials--an hour before retail customers. Of course Menards also has traditional outdoor lumberyards, too, so you can load up your truck at the very spot where the product is stocked. Some materials are stocked both inside and out, such as drywall. But you can only find 12-foot long sheets outside.

Knox had more convenient system than Menards where you could drive into their yard, load whatever yard materials you needed onto your vehicle, then run in and pay for it at a cashier inside the store that was dedicated to the yard. They had a special entrance adjacent to the yard. You'd give the cashier little slips of paper you collected next to the items you were buying and you wrote the quantities of those items on those slips or tell her as you handed them over. She'd ring your sale, and then you'd go back and drive off through the security that would check your receipt and make sure you paid for everything you were hauling away. It was nice because you never had to REALLY enter the store. That's probably what I miss most about Knox, you could just drive there and go straight to the yard and get what you needed. It was a fast system.

Menards is no such place. You need to go to the back of the store where building materials department is, decide what you need, and they print out a "pick list" of what you PLAN to get out in the yard. Then you pay for your yard goods (along with any other inside crap you need) all the way at the front if the store. At that point since you already paid for your yard goods you can go into the yard whenever you want, as they keep track of when you fulfill your pick list.

Same drill as Knox when leaving, a security guard checks that you're leaving with only what you paid for.

HD and Lowe's both seems much more tailored for retail store "home" customers. Many argue their indoor lumber "yards" keeps building materials in better condition. I guess I can reason with that. But I much prefer an outside yard to load up stuff into the pickup bed directly rather than hauling stuff out of the store on a stupid cart.

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Re: Replace brickmould around door

Post by Shannon » Mon May 13, 2019 7:33 am

That looks like a great job on a normal door !

Beauti Tone Is a Home Hardware brand paint up here and it is really good as well.I may have to start using it more again as the price has stayed more reasonable. Ben Moore is close to $80 /gal.
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