Canadian Electrical Code.. can electrical panels be on the backside wall of the stairs?

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Jmaclicious
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Canadian Electrical Code.. can electrical panels be on the backside wall of the stairs?

Post by Jmaclicious » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:41 pm

Trying to get an idea as to my options for a new electrical panel location, currently its on the landing part of the back wall in my utility room, is it allowed to be on the stair part of the wall (not in the stair case itself, but behind the wall in my utility room), or would it best for it to be on the exterior wall? This electrical guy I had come check it out said he wouldn't think the inspectors would like it on the stair wall. Just wanted to see what my options were for laying it out.
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emtnut
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Re: Canadian Electrical Code.. can electrical panels be on the backside wall of the stairs?

Post by emtnut » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:05 am

Your electrical guy has a valid point.
Both the Inspector, and hydro, always want to keep the incoming service conductors (line from outside) to a minimum inside the house.

5 feet is generally the maximum. If you need more than that (and it seems you do here), then you would need permission from the Inspector beforehand.

See attached pic, I think I have it the right side up ??
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Jmaclicious
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Re: Canadian Electrical Code.. can electrical panels be on the backside wall of the stairs?

Post by Jmaclicious » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:53 am

emtnut wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:05 am
Your electrical guy has a valid point.
Both the Inspector, and hydro, always want to keep the incoming service conductors (line from outside) to a minimum inside the house.

5 feet is generally the maximum. If you need more than that (and it seems you do here), then you would need permission from the Inspector beforehand.

See attached pic, I think I have it the right side up ??
Ah durh, makes sense! totally forgot about the service conductor coming in that far lol. :oops:

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Re: Canadian Electrical Code.. can electrical panels be on the backside wall of the stairs?

Post by emtnut » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:28 am

Jmaclicious wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:53 am
emtnut wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:05 am
Your electrical guy has a valid point.
Both the Inspector, and hydro, always want to keep the incoming service conductors (line from outside) to a minimum inside the house.

5 feet is generally the maximum. If you need more than that (and it seems you do here), then you would need permission from the Inspector beforehand.

See attached pic, I think I have it the right side up ??
Ah durh, makes sense! totally forgot about the service conductor coming in that far lol. :oops:
They do make exceptions, so depending on the reason for moving it, they may OK it.
Generally the rule is 'as close as possible' . Anything further than that needs pre-approval.
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Re: Canadian Electrical Code.. can electrical panels be on the backside wall of the stairs?

Post by Jmaclicious » Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:08 pm

emtnut wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:28 am
Jmaclicious wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:53 am


Ah durh, makes sense! totally forgot about the service conductor coming in that far lol. :oops:
They do make exceptions, so depending on the reason for moving it, they may OK it.
Generally the rule is 'as close as possible' . Anything further than that needs pre-approval.
Was away for work for a while and I just got back and had point of attachment as well as a quote done, however the electrical contractor said that the wiring I did in the basemen, which is 12-2.. should be replaced with 14-2 because they do not make "20 amp AFCI breakers" .. is this right? Also he said that inspectors don't like to see 2 cables stapled onto of each other.. but rather have 1 wire stapled by itself, then the 2nd wire stapled right beside it...... Im pretty sure code allows 2, and i thought they made 20 amp AFCI breakers? :?

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Re: Canadian Electrical Code.. can electrical panels be on the backside wall of the stairs?

Post by Aaron » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:35 pm

Yeah there's definitely 20 amp AFCI breakers, you need those for the two kitchen counter receptacles which are generally 20 amps. At least in newer homes or kitchen renos.

You shouldn't have to replace any 12 gauge cable you've got, it's totally okay to connect them to 15 amp breakers. But you will need to change out your 20 amp receptacles with 15 amp ones.

In Canada, you can stack two 12/2 or 14/2 cables under one staple, but ONLY if you use the staples that are rated for two cables. They are a slightly taller staple with stops to accommodate the thickness of two stacked cables.

In the US, there's no special staple for stacking two cables, and the same staple is used for one or two cables. For the nylon strap-style staples with small nails on each side, it's quite safe to staple one cable securely without compressing the cable. For two cables you need to be careful not to pound the nails in too far--just enough so the strap is snug against the cables. For wire-tack staples, you just have to be extra careful pounding those in regardless of whether you're using it to staple one or a stack of two.

In both the US and Canada, you may only have one or two cables under a staple.

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Re: Canadian Electrical Code.. can electrical panels be on the backside wall of the stairs?

Post by emtnut » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:04 am

I can't think of why he said that 20A AFCIs are not available ??

I know that ESA inspectors were failing jobs for 2 cables under one staple. You have to show the inspector the box of staples to verify that they are listed for 2 cables.
They are also very picky on over driven staples. The NMD should be able to move, or he will fail the job.
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Re: Canadian Electrical Code.. can electrical panels be on the backside wall of the stairs?

Post by Aaron » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:42 am

emtnut wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:04 am
I know that ESA inspectors were failing jobs for 2 cables under one staple. You have to show the inspector the box of staples to verify that they are listed for 2 cables.
They are also very picky on over driven staples. The NMD should be able to move, or he will fail the job.
Interesting! I can tell you that almost no NM moves around with staples down here. If you have just one cable stapled with the nylon strap ones, it might wiggle just a little bit. But for the most part the staples here snug the wire.

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Re: Canadian Electrical Code.. can electrical panels be on the backside wall of the stairs?

Post by Shannon » Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:29 pm

Around here in my area AFCI s are not used on counter plugs. Double wiring stapling is done by some including me but inspector wants to see what staples you used and approval.
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Re: Canadian Electrical Code.. can electrical panels be on the backside wall of the stairs?

Post by emtnut » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:35 pm

ESA here in Ontario, really came down on cable staples after quite a few fire investigations proved that the staples were too tight/and or/ too many cables.

They actually would only allow for a single cable, but then rescinded , and required you prove the listing on the staple.

Many inspectors still look dimly on more than one cable.


JMac, The 12/2 wiring in the basement, do you have any lighting on there ?? If so, that may be what your electrician meant ... lighting can only be fed from a 15A circuit up here.
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Re: Canadian Electrical Code.. can electrical panels be on the backside wall of the stairs?

Post by Aaron » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:47 pm

The electrician who did the work at my Dad's lake house stacked three NM cables under - staple!

I took some pics of it. Also more than two cables going into the boxes too!

I told my Dad it was a violation and he was just "Meh."

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Re: Canadian Electrical Code.. can electrical panels be on the backside wall of the stairs?

Post by emtnut » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:51 am

Those staples are much safer because the plastic won't crush the cable like an overdriven staple can.

And FOUR cables in ONE hole !! :o :shock: :lol:
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Re: Canadian Electrical Code.. can electrical panels be on the backside wall of the stairs?

Post by Aaron » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:12 pm

Well the staple is not so much the issue as the derating of running too many cables together, I guess. Probably not a big deal, though.

You guys have those nice galvanized staples with the stops. Those stops should reasonably prevent over-driving them. Unless I suppose if the wood is soft and you have electrician who woke up, had a bad argument with the wife, and is taking it out on the staple with a hammer. lol

Yeah, four cables in a 1/2" knockout! He could have at least enlarged that particular knockout to the 3/4" size and used a 3/4" grommet. Or just, you know, use two 1/2" holes and grommets. lol

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Re: Canadian Electrical Code.. can electrical panels be on the backside wall of the stairs?

Post by Shannon » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:36 pm

I use the staples you talk about. I do find my cables get a little sloppy with them cause they bottom out on the stops well shy of the sheathing but I do like them.
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Re: Canadian Electrical Code.. can electrical panels be on the backside wall of the stairs?

Post by emtnut » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:39 pm

One of the best 'teacher' electricians I worked with told me this ....

A cable clamp is a 'portable hole' .

What he meant was, the staple serves the same purpose as the 3/4" hole you drill in the 2 x 4
No need for it to be tight.
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Re: Canadian Electrical Code.. can electrical panels be on the backside wall of the stairs?

Post by Shannon » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:20 pm

emtnut wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:39 pm
One of the best 'teacher' electricians I worked with told me this ....

A cable clamp is a 'portable hole' .

What he meant was, the staple serves the same purpose as the 3/4" hole you drill in the 2 x 4
No need for it to be tight.
I like that !

I have a little OCD and wish we could hammer them home and keep those wires nice and straight ! LOL>
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Re: Canadian Electrical Code.. can electrical panels be on the backside wall of the stairs?

Post by Aaron » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:41 pm

Yeah it's true, the cables really just need to be reasonably tethered to the stud so they don't spring around wildly behind the walls. They need not be snug tight to the studs or joists. Low voltage cable (coax and Cat5) should have loose fasteners too--those cables transmit high frequency signals and a defect in the cable can cause signal reflection and noise.

But I watch Ask TOH and I am amazed the electrician on that show fishes NM behind preexisting walls and ceilings. That cable is swinging in the breeze within the stud or joist bays, not stapled to anything. Apparently it must be perfectly okay for retrofit residential wiring if they have the audacity to put it on television. I would still think he should use MC cable (armoured).

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Re: Canadian Electrical Code.. can electrical panels be on the backside wall of the stairs?

Post by Shannon » Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:01 am

Ya fished NM is done that way here as well.
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