Fuse Panel replacement

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Love2Learn
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Fuse Panel replacement

Post by Love2Learn » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:59 am

My current service is 200 AMPS in a 2 sided fuse panel (100 each).

-Should I have this upgraded to breaker panel before internal membrane is attached or after?
-Any idea on the cost of this?
-Does a sump pump need it's own circut?
-Does a Jet Water pump or submersible pump need it's own circut?

Just wanted to have some input before calling in a eletrician.

Thanks in advance for any advice.


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Aaron
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Re: Fuse Panel replacement

Post by Aaron » Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:26 am

It's really up to you. I've honestly never heard of, much less seen, a fuse panel that has 200A of service coming into it. That's a lot of capacity, usually fuse panels are of a vintage where they had 60A or sometimes 100A. So you must have two 100A panels as you said.

A replacement of the panels with breakers certainly wouldn't be cheap, you could contact various electricians in your area for ballpark estimates or they could maybe come out and give you a quote. It's probably at least a day's work, if not two so you're probably looking at a couple thousand? Plus materials.

They will probably be required to upgrade all known interior circuits to modern combination arc-fault circuit interruptor (CAFCI) breakers, too, in order to meet current electrical code. Those are pretty expensive breakers compared to the standard ones in the past.

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Re: Fuse Panel replacement

Post by Love2Learn » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:03 am

Thanks Aaron,

Is this replcement necessary?

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Re: Fuse Panel replacement

Post by Aaron » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:52 pm

Necessary? If it's in good working order, then no, it's not necessary. Just leave room to change it out someday.

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Re: Fuse Panel replacement

Post by Love2Learn » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:08 am

Thanks Aaron!

I am having a sump pump installed and would like to change to a submersible pump.

-Does a sump pump need it's own circut?
-Does a Jet Water pump or submersible pump need it's own circut?

Any responses are much apprecitated. Cheers!

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Shannon
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Re: Fuse Panel replacement

Post by Shannon » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:46 am

I could not find anything specific that says they do in my Canadian code book but my gut says I would keep them separated. IMO the reason is that you do not want them to be hooked to a circuit with something else because it may increase the chances that circuit breaker could be tripped by another load on that circuit and then you do not know it is off?
Hopefully Aaron or Wayne comeback on line soon to help you more with this.
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Re: Fuse Panel replacement

Post by Aaron » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:00 am

It's not necessary, no. But I would never have a sump pump without a backup battery for sure.

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Re: Fuse Panel replacement

Post by Love2Learn » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:32 am

Shannon wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:46 am
I could not find anything specific that says they do in my Canadian code book but my gut says I would keep them separated. IMO the reason is that you do not want them to be hooked to a circuit with something else because it may increase the chances that circuit breaker could be tripped by another load on that circuit and then you do not know it is off?
Hopefully Aaron or Wayne comeback on line soon to help you more with this.
Good point! So I should just ask electrician to rough in for these? Or if not replacing panel would this be a diy?
:?:

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Re: Fuse Panel replacement

Post by Love2Learn » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:34 am

Aaron wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:00 am
It's not necessary, no. But I would never have a sump pump without a backup battery for sure.
Thanks Aaron, as my basement is a walkout I will have a piping to the exterior in order to limit the usage of the the sump. Thoughts?

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Re: Fuse Panel replacement

Post by emtnut » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:42 am

Love2Learn wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:08 am
Thanks Aaron!

I am having a sump pump installed and would like to change to a submersible pump.

-Does a sump pump need it's own circut?
-Does a Jet Water pump or submersible pump need it's own circut?

Any responses are much apprecitated. Cheers!
A sump is not required to be on a separate circuit. Unless it's quite large, then the load may require it to be.
However, if you put your sump pump as dedicated, then you don't have to AFCI the circuit. Big bonus, cause pumps and AFCIs = nuisance trips !

As to it being DIY, only you can really answer that question. If you need help, we're here, but you need some skill and knowledge to do it yourself.
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Re: Fuse Panel replacement

Post by Love2Learn » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:55 am

Thanks and glad you joined the discussion sir.

What about the jet /submersible pumps?

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Re: Fuse Panel replacement

Post by emtnut » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:12 pm

No need for separate circuit, but again it depends on how big these are.

Curious what all the pumps are for ? You have a separate 'sump pump' (which are often submersible) and another 'submersible pump' ... and a jet pump somewhere ??
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Re: Fuse Panel replacement

Post by emtnut » Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:07 pm

Love2Learn wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:55 am
Thanks and glad you joined the discussion sir.

What about the jet /submersible pumps?
For some reason I assumed you were in Canada. If you're in the US, let us know. The sump not requiring AFCI may well be different down there. Aaron would be able to help you out on that.
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Re: Fuse Panel replacement

Post by Love2Learn » Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:47 pm

emtnut wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:07 pm
Love2Learn wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:55 am
Thanks and glad you joined the discussion sir.

What about the jet /submersible pumps?
For some reason I assumed you were in Canada. If you're in the US, let us know. The sump not requiring AFCI may well be different down there. Aaron would be able to help you out on that.
Thanks!

Apologies here is the situation:
-Currently have a shallow water well - 1/2 hp JET pump. Would like to change it to a submersible pump
-I am having a sump pump installed as part of an internal waterproofing / water management system

Appreciate your responses! btw I am not too far from you...Rice Lake. :)

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Re: Fuse Panel replacement

Post by Shannon » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:24 pm

Love2Learn wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:32 am
Shannon wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:46 am
I could not find anything specific that says they do in my Canadian code book but my gut says I would keep them separated. IMO the reason is that you do not want them to be hooked to a circuit with something else because it may increase the chances that circuit breaker could be tripped by another load on that circuit and then you do not know it is off?
Hopefully Aaron or Wayne comeback on line soon to help you more with this.
Good point! So I should just ask electrician to rough in for these? Or if not replacing panel would this be a diy?
:?:
really up to you and your skill level I guess and how comfortable you are with electrical circuits. Changing the panel is NOT a DIY job though.
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emtnut
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Re: Fuse Panel replacement

Post by emtnut » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:32 pm

Love2Learn wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:47 pm
emtnut wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:07 pm


For some reason I assumed you were in Canada. If you're in the US, let us know. The sump not requiring AFCI may well be different down there. Aaron would be able to help you out on that.
Thanks!

Apologies here is the situation:
-Currently have a shallow water well - 1/2 hp JET pump. Would like to change it to a submersible pump
-I am having a sump pump installed as part of an internal waterproofing / water management system

Appreciate your responses! btw I am not too far from you...Rice Lake. :)
Ahhh ... Your in Gods country too ;) I'm out that way quite a bit. My oldest grandson is north west of Peterborough. He's a Pete's fan .. I'm 67's all the way :mrgreen: We're both Leafs fans, and that's all that really counts 8-)

OK, assuming both pumps at 1/2hp , I'd run a separate circuit for each.
Technically the 2 of them running would be 10-14 amps, but if both tried starting at the same time, you would probably trip the breaker.
Neither of these would need AFCI protection, so you could run 14/3 to a split receptacle and feed both that way (assuming they are close together.)
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Aaron
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Re: Fuse Panel replacement

Post by Aaron » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:48 am

Thats how I'd do it. Pumps/motors have that immediate spike in demand at startup so it's not a bad idea to have them on dedicated lines.

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Re: Fuse Panel replacement

Post by Love2Learn » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:35 am

emtnut wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:32 pm
Love2Learn wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:47 pm


Thanks!

Apologies here is the situation:
-Currently have a shallow water well - 1/2 hp JET pump. Would like to change it to a submersible pump
-I am having a sump pump installed as part of an internal waterproofing / water management system

Appreciate your responses! btw I am not too far from you...Rice Lake. :)
Ahhh ... Your in Gods country too ;) I'm out that way quite a bit. My oldest grandson is north west of Peterborough. He's a Pete's fan .. I'm 67's all the way :mrgreen: We're both Leafs fans, and that's all that really counts 8-)

OK, assuming both pumps at 1/2hp , I'd run a separate circuit for each.
Technically the 2 of them running would be 10-14 amps, but if both tried starting at the same time, you would probably trip the breaker.
Neither of these would need AFCI protection, so you could run 14/3 to a split receptacle and feed both that way (assuming they are close together.)

Thanks so much really appreciate the sound advice. :)

Not really into pro-hockey / pro-sports anymore but if the match is between anyone else and Leafs (where I live) / Flames (where I grew up) a no brainer.
CFL: Sask Roughriders (where I was born) :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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Re: Fuse Panel replacement

Post by Love2Learn » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:40 am

Aaron wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:48 am
Thats how I'd do it. Pumps/motors have that immediate spike in demand at startup so it's not a bad idea to have them on dedicated lines.
Cheers Aaron much appreciated! :D

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Re: Fuse Panel replacement

Post by emtnut » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:59 pm

Love2Learn wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:35 am

Thanks so much really appreciate the sound advice. :)

Not really into pro-hockey / pro-sports anymore but if the match is between anyone else and Leafs (where I live) / Flames (where I grew up) a no brainer.
CFL: Sask Roughriders (where I was born) :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
I've always watched CFL. Was a big fan of the 'real' Rough Riders :lol:
It's Red Blacks now ... I'm still not fond of that name though :?

Let us know if you have any questions wiring those pumps up

Cheers
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Re: Fuse Panel replacement

Post by Love2Learn » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:07 pm

emtnut wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:59 pm
Love2Learn wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:35 am

Thanks so much really appreciate the sound advice. :)

Not really into pro-hockey / pro-sports anymore but if the match is between anyone else and Leafs (where I live) / Flames (where I grew up) a no brainer.
CFL: Sask Roughriders (where I was born) :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
I've always watched CFL. Was a big fan of the 'real' Rough Riders :lol:
It's Red Blacks now ... I'm still not fond of that name though :?

Let us know if you have any questions wiring those pumps up

Cheers
Red Blacks lol. Probably had a committee to come up with that name! ;)

So, now that I know how to wire the split outlet any advice how to add the new circuit to fuse panel?

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Re: Fuse Panel replacement

Post by Shannon » Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:45 am

Love2Learn wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:35 am
Not really into pro-hockey / pro-sports anymore but if the match is between anyone else and Leafs (where I live) / Flames (where I grew up) a no brainer.
CFL: Sask Roughriders (where I was born)
Ah flames and Riders! now you are talking! Don't really religiously follow NHL anymore but back to when I was a Kid I always liked the flames. I think cause Theo Fleury played there and I liked him as a kid. The Riders? Well who does not cheer for the Riders? My local team and the only team I watch. Bleed Green and white!
emtnut wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:59 pm
I've always watched CFL. Was a big fan of the 'real' Rough Riders
It's Red Blacks now ... I'm still not fond of that name though
I'm glad we got that whole "two teams, same name, same league" thing settled! What other pro league ever did that? Too bad the Red blacks was the chosen name though, guess the Black & Whites was too racial so they could not use that?? Or maybe it was taken already ? LOL.
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Re: Fuse Panel replacement

Post by emtnut » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:38 am

Love2Learn wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:07 pm

Red Blacks lol. Probably had a committee to come up with that name! ;)

So, now that I know how to wire the split outlet any advice how to add the new circuit to fuse panel?
On the split receptacle, you remove the shorting bar between the 2 hots, and then wire black to one screw, and red to the other. The neutral side just gets the one neutral. (you said you knew, just double checking)

At your panel, you need a double pole breaker. Red wire goes to one side of the breaker, black goes to the other side of it. Neutral ties in where all the other neutrals are in the panel.
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Re: Fuse Panel replacement

Post by Love2Learn » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:19 am

emtnut wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:38 am
Love2Learn wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:07 pm

Red Blacks lol. Probably had a committee to come up with that name! ;)

So, now that I know how to wire the split outlet any advice how to add the new circuit to fuse panel?
On the split receptacle, you remove the shorting bar between the 2 hots, and then wire black to one screw, and red to the other. The neutral side just gets the one neutral. (you said you knew, just double checking)

At your panel, you need a double pole breaker. Red wire goes to one side of the breaker, black goes to the other side of it. Neutral ties in where all the other neutrals are in the panel.
Thanks!

If I don't replace the old "fuse" panel how do you wire to it?

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Re: Fuse Panel replacement

Post by emtnut » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:42 pm

Love2Learn wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:19 am
emtnut wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:38 am
On the split receptacle, you remove the shorting bar between the 2 hots, and then wire black to one screw, and red to the other. The neutral side just gets the one neutral. (you said you knew, just double checking)
At your panel, you need a double pole breaker. Red wire goes to one side of the breaker, black goes to the other side of it. Neutral ties in where all the other neutrals are in the panel.
Thanks!
If I don't replace the old "fuse" panel how do you wire to it?
I guess you'd have a hard time putting in a DP breaker in a fuse panel :lol:

This may change the multiwire circuit (3 conductor cable). If there is a panel diagram, we would have to make sure you are on 2 separate phases for each 'black' wire for the circuit.
If it's unclear, or the diagram is not there, then just run 2 - 2/14 cables to 2 separate receptacles.
To wire into a fuse, there should be a terminal just to the side of it where you connect the live wire.

I'd caution on working in your panel if you haven't done this type of work before. Parts of the panel can be live even if you pull the main fuse !
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Re: Fuse Panel replacement

Post by Aaron » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:24 pm

Shannon wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:45 am
Love2Learn wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:35 am
Not really into pro-hockey / pro-sports anymore but if the match is between anyone else and Leafs (where I live) / Flames (where I grew up) a no brainer.
CFL: Sask Roughriders (where I was born)
Ah flames and Riders! now you are talking! Don't really religiously follow NHL anymore but back to when I was a Kid I always liked the flames. I think cause Theo Fleury played there and I liked him as a kid. The Riders? Well who does not cheer for the Riders? My local team and the only team I watch. Bleed Green and white!
emtnut wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:59 pm
I've always watched CFL. Was a big fan of the 'real' Rough Riders
It's Red Blacks now ... I'm still not fond of that name though
I'm glad we got that whole "two teams, same name, same league" thing settled! What other pro league ever did that? Too bad the Red blacks was the chosen name though, guess the Black & Whites was too racial so they could not use that?? Or maybe it was taken already ? LOL.
We got it all going on in the Twin Cities this season! For the NHL the Minnesota Wild; for NFL the Minnesota Vikings are in the NFC game against the Eagles this week-- they had an unbelievable win (Hail Mary) on Sunday against New Orleans.

The CFL and NFL should merge, I'm not sure why there'd be separate leagues when we both have NHL and MLB.

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Re: Fuse Panel replacement

Post by Shannon » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:01 am

Aaron wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:24 pm
The CFL and NFL should merge, I'm not sure why there'd be separate leagues when we both have NHL and MLB.
Not sure what city up here could handle the NFL type market. Not enough money here for a team for that league.
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Re: Fuse Panel replacement

Post by Aaron » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:54 am

Shannon wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:01 am
Not sure what city up here could handle the NFL type market. Not enough money here for a team for that league.
Football must not be as passionate up there as it is here. I'd welcome more teams and another conference. It'd make the playoffs and Super Bowl just that much better.

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Re: Fuse Panel replacement

Post by Love2Learn » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:57 am

Shannon wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:01 am
Aaron wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:24 pm
The CFL and NFL should merge, I'm not sure why there'd be separate leagues when we both have NHL and MLB.
Not sure what city up here could handle the NFL type market. Not enough money here for a team for that league.
There has been talk of it here in TO. I like the CFL rules and fans are fiercly loyal. Would hate to see it go.

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Re: Fuse Panel replacement

Post by Love2Learn » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:09 am

emtnut wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:42 pm
Love2Learn wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:19 am


Thanks!
If I don't replace the old "fuse" panel how do you wire to it?
I guess you'd have a hard time putting in a DP breaker in a fuse panel :lol:

This may change the multiwire circuit (3 conductor cable). If there is a panel diagram, we would have to make sure you are on 2 separate phases for each 'black' wire for the circuit.
If it's unclear, or the diagram is not there, then just run 2 - 2/14 cables to 2 separate receptacles.
To wire into a fuse, there should be a terminal just to the side of it where you connect the live wire.

I'd caution on working in your panel if you haven't done this type of work before. Parts of the panel can be live even if you pull the main fuse !
Thanks for responding!

I will get some pictures heading there this afternoon for appt. for Electrician quote. The "fuse" panel is much more daunting to me and most likely leave it to professional but wanted your input.

Do you work on these very often?

Cheers Carol!

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