Reducing Bounce iJoist

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tpirovol
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Reducing Bounce iJoist

Post by tpirovol » Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:53 am

Hi Shannon,

I think this might become my new favorite site. I bought a home about 9 years ago but did not have the basement finished. One thing I noticed was that there was some bounce, after calling the company that made the beams and looking at the diagrams the beam are well over code. the issue seems to be any ijoist over 17' will have some bounce and being mine are 22.5' it has some but not a lot. To put in perspective the tiles have not cracked on the floor and the bounce is not noticeable until my kids run around and even then it is not much.

After speaking with the company they offered the below resolution.

1) Install blocking from a company called ibs2000. I called them and it seems that it will improve the bounce by about 40%.

2) Installing a wall across the basement (I am ok with this as there is a lot of room). The concern I have is the floor cracking form the load? I don't think this would be considered a retaining wall but rather just absorbing the bounce deflection? This is estimated to offer a 200% benefit.

Thoughts?
Thanks Again
Terry


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A. Spruce
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Re: Reducing Bounce iJoist

Post by A. Spruce » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:23 am

Putting support under the floor will be the best solution. So long as the concrete is the usual 3.5" thickness it will be fine, as you said, it's not really supporting any load. The longer the wall is, the more it is going to spread any downward force out over a larger area of the concrete, thus reducing the likelihood of cracking.

If you don't want to risk it, blocking will help significantly, but you will always notice when the elephants in the house are running around.
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Re: Reducing Bounce iJoist

Post by tpirovol » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:42 pm

Thanks for the reply,

In the end the plans said 3" concrete but I think they added more than that because when I was there it seemed like 4"+. The span I would run this wall would be 24' and over that area I also installed 2x 4x4x4 cement footings but the issue I have is notching the block it is something I don't want to do.

My thought is doing a 2x6 spaced 10oc, 2x 2x6 on the top and bottom across the entire length of the floor with an door opening and a beam spanning the footings. I would then also do blocking as heck why no I am one of those people that like to over do it. The 2x6 top and bottom would be to spread the load even more across the floor.

Thoughts? Also have you heard of ibs2000??

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Re: Reducing Bounce iJoist

Post by A. Spruce » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:53 pm

Clarify, what is a 2x 4x4x4 cement footing, and why would you be notching block?

I don't think that a 2x6 wall is necessary, 2x4 is more than sufficient for your plates and wall. One single pressure treated 2x for the floor plate and a regular single 2x4 for the top plate and studs. Doing a double top plate would ease installation of the wall, but it's not a necessity if you don't want to. I would space the studs at the same spacing as the joists themselves, and locate the studs directly under the joists for maximum support. For any doors put into this wall, install a header to transfer the joist load out and around the door opening.

It looks to me like IBS2000 is simply a manufactured blocking system. You indicate that you have I-joists, I've seen them, but never used them myself, so I don't know if you really need special blocking for them or if you can simply make your own. Basically what is happening is there is deflection that causes the joists to deform, blocking stops the ability for the joist to deform, thereby eliminating bounce and sag. If I were you, I'd first build the wall, if you still don't like the feel of the floor you can always go back and add blocking later.
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Re: Reducing Bounce iJoist

Post by tpirovol » Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:56 pm

Thanks for the reply. Sorry My basement is 24' long by 22' wide. When I had the basement floor poored I had 2x 4'x4'x4' concrete footings poured in case I even wanted to add a beam as per my engineer. The thing is that if I wanted to go end to end I would have to take a chunk out of my block wall to fit one end of the beam. So it would be wall -> Post -> Post -> Wall.

I called LP the company that makes my i-joist and they told me something disturbing. I called to ask what type of screws I could use for the framing into the joists and they told me that since the joists are dry there is a high tendency for it to split and require a completely new beam. He recommended penny nails but how is that going to hold up framing around the ducting in my basement?

How can that be? In the end are we saying that if you ever need to renovate your home after the fact with engineered beams there is a chance your could mess up the joist and god only know what a 22.5ft engineered beam being installed after the fact would cost.

Thoughts???

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Re: Reducing Bounce iJoist

Post by A. Spruce » Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:14 pm

I wouldn't notch the block, way too much trouble for what it's worth. Staying between the block walls will be fine.

It's good to know that these joists have a tendency to split, saves you from damaging them during your work. Because of the splitting issue, I'd use screws rather than nails. Pre-drill all your screw holes, that way the screw is not acting as a wedge and won't damage the joists.
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Re: Reducing Bounce iJoist

Post by tpirovol » Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:42 pm

Thanks again Spruce. When you say staying within the walls what would that mean? Also what screws should I use?

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Re: Reducing Bounce iJoist

Post by A. Spruce » Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:47 pm

There is no reason to notch the block wall, just butt up against it. Remember, pressure treated lumber against concrete - always!

Deck screws will suffice, you want a structural screw, not the thinner and more brittle "drywall" or "goldie" type screws, I think it's a #10, Shannon probably knows. To be clear, you only need to use these where you're attaching to the joists, the wall framing can be nailed, though you can screw that as well if you want to.
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Re: Reducing Bounce iJoist

Post by Shannon » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:23 pm

ya I agree with Spruce here a simple wall is all you need there is no need for posts sitting on footings.
Build the wall sitting directly on the concrete floor. I would install the P.T bottom plate to the concrete floor and then a top plate to the underside of the floor joists. You can then measure and cut studs to fit between the two plates. If you have the wood I joists then they are likely spaced at 19-1/4" O.C.. I would space the wall studs at a more conventional 16" O.C. and build any door opening using a traditional header type opening. I don't generally recommend deck screws for a structural wall but this wall is really not" holding up the house" so they would be fine IMO for this entire project. They are a #8 screw. I really doubt you will get splitting on the floor joists but if you do you can predrill as Spruce suggested.
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Re: Reducing Bounce iJoist

Post by Shannon » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:37 pm

Wait I just realized you said you have a clear span of 22" from outside basement wall to outside basement wall with no centre beam.
Now I see why you have the footing pads poured. So you may be better off with using a beam and posts or small wall sections so the basement is not cut in half with a wall? You would really not have to cut into the block wall to insert the end of the beam you could set the outer ends on posts sitting either down on the footing or even on the floor really. That would be fine for what this wall is doing IMO.
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Re: Reducing Bounce iJoist

Post by tpirovol » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:07 am

Thanks for the reply guys. In the end I think I know what is going on. My beams are LP 11 7/8, 12oc with a 22.5’ span. From what I can tell are rated for something between L/520 and L/540. Above these beams is my kitchen with travertine tiles from what I am reading stone needs between L/480 and L/720 but over the past 9 years I have not had cracking. If I add a wall or beam making the span 15’ then it should be above L/720.

As for the floor it looks like they are 3.5” as you can see from the photos from the step before they poored the concrete.

I don’t mind separating the room I actually want to :). As for the bounce in reality it is very very little and only notice it when my kids run around the kitchen.

So my options would be beam on footing/wall -> beam -> beam -> wall that is on the on the old side or a wall for the last 7’??

One last thing have you ever heard of an ijoist splitting and needing to be replaced? I cannot imagine all ijoist older than a few years having a high probability of splitting. I also had a good idea from one of your video. I need to box in around my venting and watched a video where you used metal framing on the top. This way I could use drywall screws on the top between the metal studs and joist? The beam company has me all freaked out.

Thoughts??

Thanks again guys!
Terry

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Re: Reducing Bounce iJoist

Post by Shannon » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:50 am

I have never seen them really split and like I said if you have that problem then you can pre drill.
You can do what you want as far as beams or walls. Where you use beam sections you should have the posts sitting on the footing pads you had poured but really these beams are not holding much weight in your situation so its not as critical .
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Re: Reducing Bounce iJoist

Post by tpirovol » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:51 pm

Hey Shannon,

Do you know of a skills honest contractor in Toronto? Your not heading to Toronto anytime soon are you ?????

Thanks Terry

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Re: Reducing Bounce iJoist

Post by A. Spruce » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:04 am

My recommendation for finding a qualified tradesman, regardless of what you need done, is to first talk with trusted family and friends about who they use. If you don't have that, then have a look at sites like Yelp, Angie's List, even Facebook. While I'm not a fan of using sites like these, it will at least thin the herd a bit for your search.

Always, always, always, get multiple bids, three is a good place to start. Be clear on the scope of work you need done and present this same list to each prospect so that when the bids are returned you will be able to compare scope of work and prices quoted. Lastly, the cheapest bid is not necessarily the correct way to go, nor is the highest bidder, this is where you have to use your gut. Go with the person whom you like the best, who gives you the best impression that they know what they're talking about. If you get wildly different pricing and they bring up more work that should be addressed as well, then update your scope of work list and have each update their bids.

I liken hiring anyone, particularly people to come work in your home, to getting married. You absolutely must like and trust the individual, otherwise you are inviting pain and hardship into the equation, things you just don't need in life, period!
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Re: Reducing Bounce iJoist

Post by Shannon » Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:42 am

Yup Spruce has it right.
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Re: Reducing Bounce iJoist

Post by tpirovol » Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:46 pm

Thanks guys that is my usual standard practice but Toronto is crazy. I got quoted between $5 and $7K to add the wall on trusted pro's the other day from 5x contractors.

Toronto is crazy!

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Re: Reducing Bounce iJoist

Post by A. Spruce » Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:23 pm

That's a lot of money for a 22' wall. Is there something we don't know about?
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Re: Reducing Bounce iJoist

Post by Shannon » Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:42 am

Almost worth the drive at that price! LOL. A 22' 2x6 wall with a couple openings in it and drywalled both sides, mudded and painted is maybe $700 in materials and maybe $2000 labour max in my area. And thats even a little high IMO. You could DIY this so easy yourself and save at least $4-$6 grand.
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Re: Reducing Bounce iJoist

Post by tpirovol » Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:48 am

That is not even dry walled that is just the wall!! That was from the site without having anyone come and see it. From my perspective it should take 1/2 a day but realistically a full day is what you pay for in the city for two people so $1500 in labour and $500 material is what I would expect.

Thoughts? Shannon where do you live? Why don't I just pay for you and your wife to come to Toronto put you in a nice hotel you spend the 1/2 doing the work and a few days on me in the city? :)

Thanks Terry

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Re: Reducing Bounce iJoist

Post by A. Spruce » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:18 am

tpirovol wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:48 am
Thoughts? Shannon where do you live? Why don't I just pay for you and your wife to come to Toronto put you in a nice hotel you spend the 1/2 doing the work and a few days on me in the city? :)

Thanks Terry
Heck, for that kind of treatment, I'm available! ;) :mrgreen:
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Re: Reducing Bounce iJoist

Post by Shannon » Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:20 pm

tpirovol wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:48 am
That is not even dry walled that is just the wall!! That was from the site without having anyone come and see it. From my perspective it should take 1/2 a day but realistically a full day is what you pay for in the city for two people so $1500 in labour and $500 material is what I would expect.

Thoughts? Shannon where do you live? Why don't I just pay for you and your wife to come to Toronto put you in a nice hotel you spend the 1/2 doing the work and a few days on me in the city? :)

Thanks Terry
Lol, it is tempting. I think if you can get someone to come by and have a look you will get someone reasonable.
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Re: Reducing Bounce iJoist

Post by tpirovol » Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:51 am

Well it has been a few weeks and figured I would update the post.

1) Found two framers both bonded, insured and reputable both around $1k for a days work with a helper.

2) Deep Penetrating Radar guy came and found the exact spots of the footings. He also measured the floor and it is on average 4” of concrete and 4” of stone. The footings are 4’x4’ by a minimum of 20” as he cannot see beyond 20”.

3) Engineer came over and said I could easily do a 4x6 wall or part wall/part bean and the beam at 11’. Still waiting on the specs of the beam. In the end the basement will be split into 2x sides consisting of 16’ and 7’ both 24’ long.
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Comments and thought??
Thanks T

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Re: Reducing Bounce iJoist

Post by Shannon » Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:08 am

IMO, In all honesty You are not really supporting the entire load or point loads from up stairs ,you are just reducing the span of the joists and taking the bounce/deflection out of them. You could frame that wall anywhere along the span of the joists you wanted even if the wall misses the footings.
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Re: Reducing Bounce iJoist

Post by tpirovol » Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:02 pm

Thanks Shannon,

In the end you are correct I am over thinking this. Main thing is ensuring the floor does not crack. In the end we are going with option #2 all wall. Some will be on the 4” floor and others on the footing which I think if it was all on the 4” floor it would be enough?

Thoughts? Thanks again for everyone’s support.

Terry

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Re: Reducing Bounce iJoist

Post by A. Spruce » Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:34 pm

You're not building a structural component, so there isn't really any need for footings, the floor alone will suffice.

FWIW, a 2x4x8 has 2.33 square feet of surface area that any load would be spread across, while it would be "point" loading to a degree, only being 3.5" wide, you're still spreading the load across a large area.
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Re: Reducing Bounce iJoist

Post by tpirovol » Fri May 11, 2018 9:24 pm

So went and got all the wood ready to frame. I was just reading a site that stated PT wood should be used on the floor and another that stated that PT was not allowed.

I did not buy PT but instead plan on using vapor barrier on the ground and then regular wood on top. I wanted to use Blue wood but it was not available in Toronto anymore. Since I have termites in my areas I am going to spray the wood with Boracare similar to what I have done with the entire basement.

Also do I need to dry framing lumber or is their very little shrink in framing lumber?

Lastly connecting 2x6’s to the floor what length tapcons should I get?

Thanks T

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Re: Reducing Bounce iJoist

Post by A. Spruce » Fri May 11, 2018 10:50 pm

Untreated wood cannot be used in direct contact with concrete, I'm not sure that a vapor barrier under the wood will suffice, but it may, your local building department will have the definitive answer.

Save yourself the big bucks on Boracare and simply buy yourself a box of 20 Mule Team Borax. What's the difference? Boracare runs about $85 a gallon, Borax will run you $7 for 4 pounds that will make you at least 50 gallons of solution.

To use borax you simply mix 1/2 to 1 cup of borax into hot tap water, mix until completely dissolved, then put it into a garden sprayer and have at it. You use hot water because more borax will go into solution when using a hot liquid. If you leave the product to sit for several days, you'll have borax crystals drop out of suspension, don't worry about it, simply run it through a piece of window screen to catch the debris so that it doesn't clog up your sprayer and continue using it. Borax is virtually only toxic to ants and termites, it is not harmful to you, your kids, pets, or the environment, which is another reason to choose it over other commercially available products. Spray it on all sides of your lumber to the point of runoff, let it dry, and repeat for a total of 3 applications. This will be enough to deter or kill bugs that try to eat it.

You do not need to use dried lumber, in fact, it's almost better if you don't, because kiln dried lumber tends to be brittle and split when running fasteners through it, it also tends to be more expensive than standard lumber. Shrinkage will be negligible and will only be noticeable in the diameter dimension of the lumber, not the length.

I've never used Tapcons, only shot or drilled anchors. Generally, for most applications, you want a fastener that is at least twice the length of the thickness of your material, since your plate is 1.5" you'd want a screw that was 3" in length.
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Re: Reducing Bounce iJoist

Post by Shannon » Fri May 11, 2018 11:03 pm

In my area you can place either poly plastic between concrete and standard lumber or foam sill gasket, but check with your local inspectors. I use treated lumber all the time in basements for the bottom plate but maybe your area will not allow it. If you do you must use ACQ approved fasteners in that piece and not standard framing fasteners.

I generally do not use Tapcons for wall plates either but if you do you wanna use something at least 3" long
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Re: Reducing Bounce iJoist

Post by tpirovol » Sat May 12, 2018 6:13 am

Ok perfect but bottom line nothing wrong with using standard lumber for the bottom plate as long as I use poly or foam?

Also what fasteners do you use?

Thanks T

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Re: Reducing Bounce iJoist

Post by Shannon » Sat May 12, 2018 7:32 pm

Ya no problem with standard lumber.

I use hammer in mushroom head anchors. They are like a large diameter nail with a slight bend in the shank.
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