Texture failure

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gsahlot
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Texture failure

Post by gsahlot » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:15 pm

I had popcorn ceiling in my living room, which I got removed professionally and left the remaining job (texture, prime, paint) to myself.

In rest of the house the texture is skip trowel (see pictures: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing) but because of several paints over time, it is hardly visible. Now, I tried to match that texture but totally failed. In fact, I have no idea what kind of texture I have come up with but not sure if it will look good once painted (see pictures: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing). I think the mistakes I made were:

1. The consistency of the purpose joint compound was thick which caused the layer of mud on ceiling to be thick.
2. I started out using the following technique:
- take mud on the edge of the trowel
- hold the trowel at 45 degree angle with its edge with mud touching the ceiling
- slide the trowel away from the touching edge

When I was using above technique, I was feeling that I am rather doing a skim coat and felt that there wont be any texture really once I am done. So I tried the following technique (which I thought about myself):
- take the mud on the edge of the trowel
- touch the edge at several nearby spots on the ceiling (this will give small mountains of mud on ceiling in one area)
- knock down the applied texture.

Unfortunately, my own technique has given me a weird looking texture. Now I am feeling that my 1st technique would have given better result. :-(

Can you please suggest my options to fix it and match it with the existing texture? I am thinking if I should sand it down and restart and this time? Or skim coat and redo? Or maybe just put another texture on top of this to fill gaps?

Thanks!


Clarence
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Re: Texture failure

Post by Clarence » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:40 pm

The texture you have done would be called a free style. You should have skimmed coated the ceiling than applied the free style.
To match the texture in the first photos you would skim coat the ceiling than using a thin mixture
( thin the mud with water to make a cream ) than using a masons brush or a large paint brush dash the mixture on than very lightly knock it down with a clean trowel. The thicker the mud the rougher the texture. If this is your first job hire someone to do it , it will be faster and cheaper.

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A. Spruce
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Re: Texture failure

Post by A. Spruce » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:50 pm

Unfortunately, the pictures don't show for me. The better way is to attach pictures using the attachment button below the message response box and upload them directly to the forum.

I have to say, matching any type of texture is a skill that takes years of practice and patience. My technique varies depending on exactly what I'm trying to match. In the case of skip trowel, you actually need to add a touch of sand (visit the paint department of your favorite supplier ), it is the sand that modulates the thickness of the texture.

You also say that your texture is covered in years of paint, which means that it has a very muted appearance, and appearance that you must now mimic with your fresh texture. There are several ways of doing this, using a thicker mud, which is easier to work with, let it set/dry, then wipe the area down with a wet tile sponge to knock off all the sharp edges. The other way is to use a much looser mud, which is going to give you the softer edges, but it's going to be much harder to work with and produce an even texture.

You kind of have to play with the consistency of your mud mix, whether you use sand or not, until you can get close to the same size and shape of the existing smudges of texture. You will then most likely have to follow up with the wet sponge to soften the edges and thin the thickness of the smudges a bit. Once you get it close, then two coats of primer and two coats of paint should blend it back in pretty well.
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gsahlot
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Re: Texture failure

Post by gsahlot » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:47 pm

Uploading the images here, was trying to save space on server. :-)

Here are the images of existing texture:
Existing3.jpg
Existing3.jpg (36.18 KiB) Viewed 119 times
Existing2.jpg
Existing2.jpg (29.36 KiB) Viewed 119 times
Existing1.jpg
Existing1.jpg (23.85 KiB) Viewed 119 times
My attempt:
New1.jpg
New1.jpg (42.7 KiB) Viewed 119 times
New2.jpg
New2.jpg (54.76 KiB) Viewed 119 times

gsahlot
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Re: Texture failure

Post by gsahlot » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:48 pm

Another pic of my attempt:
New3.jpg
New3.jpg (45.04 KiB) Viewed 119 times

gsahlot
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Re: Texture failure

Post by gsahlot » Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:38 pm

Clarence wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:40 pm
The texture you have done would be called a free style. You should have skimmed coated the ceiling than applied the free style.
To match the texture in the first photos you would skim coat the ceiling than using a thin mixture
( thin the mud with water to make a cream ) than using a masons brush or a large paint brush dash the mixture on than very lightly knock it down with a clean trowel. The thicker the mud the rougher the texture. If this is your first job hire someone to do it , it will be faster and cheaper.
Thanks Clarence!

I think that might work but just to ensure that I understand correctly, are you suggesting the following steps?

1. Make thin mixture and skim coat the whole ceiling using that. Maybe before this step, I sand it down as much as possible to get rid of thicker layers and edges.
2. Let the skim coat dry out for 24 hrs.
3. Make thin mixture again and apply thin mixture using a mason brush in hap hazard fashion on the dried out skim coat and then immediately lightly knock it down.

gsahlot
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Re: Texture failure

Post by gsahlot » Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:30 am

BTW, which drywall compound is best for texture, joint or topping or all-purpose joint?

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A. Spruce
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Re: Texture failure

Post by A. Spruce » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:10 am

I usually use topping, but any of them will do. Topping is smoother and a little easier to work with, it also isn't as hard when dry, so it's much easier to sand or sponge to get the desired affect you're looking for.
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A. Spruce
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Re: Texture failure

Post by A. Spruce » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:27 am

I've never used Clarence's method, sounds like it might get you close to what you have.

Traditional skip trowel is done by thinning the mud to the point that it will just hold a bead on the edge of your drywall knife. To load the knife, push the face of the knife into the mud and drag it up the side of the pan, just before the knife leaves the pan, rock it over the lip and clean the edge of the knife so that the bead of mud sits 1/4"-1/2" back from the edge of the knife.

You will then hold the knife flat in your fingertips, set the dry edge on the surface, then start dragging the knife, rotating while in motion until the mud starts to drag onto the ceiling. The speed at which you rotate the mud bead into the surface will depend on the consistency of the mud and the speed of the knife across the surface.

The faster you rotate, the more mud you will apply, resulting in larger smooshes, the slower you rotate, the smaller the smooshes. This is something that takes quite a bit of practice to get the hang of and produce even results as you move across a surface. I'd recommend a vid search to see how it's done, then practice the techniques.

Unfortunately, it looks like you will need to either scrape off what you've done or float out the entire surface and start over. Those big globs are not going to blend in or look good once painted.
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Clarence
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Re: Texture failure

Post by Clarence » Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:22 am

Lets make it a little easer thin your mud to a very heavy cream than using a thick paint roller you roll the joint compound on the ceiling than with a clean trowel pull the rolled coating down smooth. All excess mud that is picked up when pulling the coating down goes into a mud pan and can be used later.
When dry say 24 hours use the brush to splatter the surface you DON'T paint it on you DASH it on in other words flick your wrist keeping the brush say about 18 " from the surface the further away the smaller the dashes will be. When this coating is still wet lightly pull the trowel over the dashes the more pressure used the flatter the texture. You can also use another roller to apply texture different type rollers will give different textures. Also you can apply texture using a sponge by pressing into the wet coating and pulling it away. Practice , practice , practice. The above are just some ways to texture I could add about 15 more.

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Shannon
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Re: Texture failure

Post by Shannon » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:45 am

It is tough to match existing textures for many reasons layers of paint,consistancy of mud, personal technique, tools used. Also much practice all on aspects is needed to know what will do what. If the ceilings are not side by side that will give you a little wiggle room to have some minor difference.
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gsahlot
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Re: Texture failure

Post by gsahlot » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:03 am

Thanks for all the advice. Much appreciated. So this is what I plan to do now:

1. Scrape the texture I have applied.
2. Thin skim coat the whole ceiling and let it dry for 24 hrs.
3. Practice in a small area on the ceiling and see which technique (Clarence's or Spruce's) works best for me. Then do that.

Have some more questions on my strategy.

1. In order to scrape this weird looking new texture, how can I best do it? I was thinking to spray water and sock it then try to scrap using 6" drywall knife but it doesn't seem to come off easily, should I scrape as much as I could then soak more then scrap and repeat until all comes off? Also I am worried about exposed sheetrock parts while spraying water. That sheetrock paper seems to be easy to melt so not sure if too much spray of water could cause damage. Don't want to have a sheetrock replacement project now. :-( Should I just sand it down as much as I could? What could be the best possible way to remove it? I saw electric drywall sander rentals but they seem to be expensive for example: https://www.homedepot.com/tool-truck-re ... index.html. Are these effective?

BTW, this is what I have used for this badly done texture: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Westpac-Mat ... /100320409

2. Once texture is removed/sanded, should I prime the ceiling before skim coating?

3. Lastly, is that product OK to skim coat as well as texture? I found something like this on which label says it is for texturing: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Westpac-Mat ... /100320452
Or should I just buy dry, instead of premixed? That one seems to be cheaper.

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A. Spruce
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Re: Texture failure

Post by A. Spruce » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:34 am

Joint compound dries very hard, so it is not going to scrape very easily. You can try using a garden sprayer and misting the surface several times to soften/loosen the materials, but you're probably screwed unless you want to spend days trying to remove it.

Sanding will be the next fastest, but dirtiest option. You can get a sanding head for your shop vac to help reduce the dust. Another option is to put cheap fiber furnace filters on both sides of a box fan and run it in the room where you're sanding, this will capture a great amount of the dust. You will need to periodically knock the dust out of the filters and you will want to seal off the room you're working in to contain the dust as much as possible. You can put a fan in a window for some negative air pressure in the room to keep dust in the area as well.

There is no need to buy special texture material. Topping compound is going to be the easiest to work with, it is a smoother product and it does not dry as hard, making it easier to sand or sponge.

Clarence's roller application is probably going to net the most even and repeatable results. While it's not likely going to match what you have, you could use his method to redo all surfaces to be the same. If it were my house I'd apply knock-down texture, which is applied with a hopper/air compressor and then troweled. I prefer knock-down to orange peel, which is the exact same process, only not troweled. Spraying texture is a whole lot faster, easier, and repeatable, so it's easy to keep things looking the same from area to area and room to room or to blend patches into an existing area. The key with spray texture is to not spray it too heavily.
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Clarence
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Re: Texture failure

Post by Clarence » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:46 am

What you need to remove the texture you have applied is this tool.
Scraper mortar # AP14 Page # 99 in the ToolRro Catalog www.toolpro.com
Or another name for the same tool is Angle Plane page # 114 part # PL300 in the Kraft Tool Co. catalog. www.KraftTool.com
In the plaster trade it is called an Angle Plane don't no it by the name scraper.

Cost is in the range of $15.00

gsahlot
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Re: Texture failure

Post by gsahlot » Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:55 pm

Joint compound dries very hard, so it is not going to scrape very easily. You can try using a garden sprayer and misting the surface several times to soften/loosen the materials, but you're probably screwed unless you want to spend days trying to remove it.
In spraying water, I am worried about the exposed spots of ceiling's sheetrock. Would I be causing any damage to that cardboard type of surface of sheetrock if I happen to spray too much of water on it? Since it looks to be just paper, it might just melt in water. :-(
What you need to remove the texture you have applied is this tool.
Scraper mortar # AP14 Page # 99 in the ToolRro Catalog www.toolpro.com
Or another name for the same tool is Angle Plane page # 114 part # PL300 in the Kraft Tool Co. catalog. www.KraftTool.com
In the plaster trade it is called an Angle Plane don't no it by the name scraper.
It looks like those things are available only online on those websites. Could I just buy some tool from local home improvement stores e.g. Lowes, etc. and get going on with this work soon?
Could this do the job: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Warner-Steel-P ... in/3089517 ?
Or this one: https://www.homedepot.com/p/QEP-4-in-Wi ... /100194275 ?

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Shannon
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Re: Texture failure

Post by Shannon » Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:05 pm

gsahlot wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:55 pm


In spraying water, I am worried about the exposed spots of ceiling's sheetrock. Would I be causing any damage to that cardboard type of surface of sheetrock if I happen to spray too much of water on it? Since it looks to be just paper, it might just melt in water. :-(


It looks like those things are available only online on those websites. Could I just buy some tool from local home improvement stores e.g. Lowes, etc. and get going on with this work soon?
Could this do the job: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Warner-Steel-P ... in/3089517 ?
Or this one: https://www.homedepot.com/p/QEP-4-in-Wi ... /100194275 ?
Ya getting the bare paper too wet will not help you at all and will just lead to it being able to be damaged easier when scraping IMO.
I have never seen those tools Clarence listed but looks like they would be helpful,either way you are going to need to use some sweat and time to get this cleaned up. May just have to put your head down and sand ?
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gsahlot
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Re: Texture failure

Post by gsahlot » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:42 pm

Ya getting the bare paper too wet will not help you at all and will just lead to it being able to be damaged easier when scraping IMO.
Agree with you. Making it wet and scrap is not working as I am doing more damage than recovery. So my only option is to sand either manually (it's too slow and takes several back and forth to sand one spot) or using some electric sander. :-(

Clarence
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Re: Texture failure

Post by Clarence » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:11 am

Bite the bullet now & go to your local tool supply house like one of the masonry supply stores & have them order the Angle plane they may have one on hand.
Knock down the high spots than skim it smooth & start over from there or just skim over what you have this way it just takes more joint compound labor is the same less the sanding / scraping.

Clarence
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Re: Texture failure

Post by Clarence » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:38 am

Another idea is to use a Deck Crawler it will remove the texture but if used be very careful of damaging the paper. Also when using any tool that will produce dust. The dust will be in places that you would not think about. causing dust will get in your air duct system , air filter system you would all most need an Air Scrubbing System in place to get it done.
Look at it this way " If you have a bucket of POOP the more you stir it the more it will STINK "

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