Misplaced support posts

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Vivian
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Misplaced support posts

Post by Vivian » Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:26 pm

Hi Shannon,

The first contractor I hired positioned the support posts under a rafter. The second contractor said it should be positioned under the fascia board, secured with "hurricane brackets." Is this the best way to remedy the mispositioned posts?

Another issue is that the three cemented posts at the front of my studio (to support a 10'x4' roof overhang over the porch) were not cut to the right height before they were cemented - in fact they are at different heights, the one closest to the fence is highest. Please see pic, taken before Tyvek was installed. When I asked the first contractor why, he said this is the way it is done, and that the posts are cut to the right height when the metal roof is installed. Today my friend said it is quite onerous and risky to cut the high posts when they are already cemented.

I'd appreciate your advice on what is the best way to deal with getting the posts cut to the same height. Thanks very much!

Vivian
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A. Spruce
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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by A. Spruce » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:23 am

Wow! You've got some seriously deficient "contractors" there!

Posts supporting rafters and fascia are doing little to nothing structurally

The correct way is the posts support a header which supports the rafters. The fascia is then attached to the ends of the rafters.

I would shorten the posts and install a header. I'd recommend cutting a flat of at least 3" on the bottom of the rafter tails where they will rest on the header. The header should be flush to the end of the rafter tails because this is where the posts are located, then the fascia can be installed over the ends of the rafter tails. That takes care of the side of the studio, although, I would extend it out to match the front porch roof too so that the front porch and side porch will share a corner post.

In front, where the door is, I would install headers from the wall to the corner posts, metal brackets at the wall, post caps on the posts for the header connections. I would then install a header from corner post to corner post, in the middle of that, I'd install vertical support to carry a ridge beam. With this structure in place, the rafters can continue out from the gable to cover the entry. The center post does not need to be there with this method, which will really open up the front porch/entry, making it less claustrophobic.

The face of the porch gable can be filled in with siding for more of a finished look, or left open, your choice.
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Shannon
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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Shannon » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:14 am

Ya you really have been getting the run around here with your contractors for sure.
Cutting those posts to height is no big deal even standing. If you have a competent carpenter.
Spruce is completely right here ,that side roof needs to be supported with a beam. It will have to be temporarily supported while getting that all cut and in place. This would have been much easier in the first place but doable for sure now still.

Spruce is also right about the roof over the door if you are doing a gable roof to match what is on the shed .I have a feeling you have something else in mind by your comments about a "metal roof". Is this some type of metal frame" lean to "type structure that will attach to the wall and slope down to sit on posts?
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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by A. Spruce » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:37 am

Shannon wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:14 am
Spruce is also right about the roof over the door if you are doing a gable roof to match what is on the shed .I have a feeling you have something else in mind by your comments about a "metal roof". Is this some type of metal frame" lean to "type structure that will attach to the wall and slope down to sit on posts?
Even so, I'd still install a header and delete the center post.
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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Vivian » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:51 pm

Thanks very much, guys, for all your sound & solid advice! : ) Wow, it sounds like a lot of work needs to be done to remedy all the mistakes. I struggled a little to understand all your recommendations, but I think I do understand now, how things need to be undone and corrected so that I won't have problems done the road. I will pass on all your advice onto the new person - he's not quite a contractor but I totally trust his integrity and good will to do the best job he can to finish building my studio.

The new person - I'll just call him my friend for now - pointed out deficiencies with the Tyvek install and suggested redoing it. If we undo the Tyvek, I guess he could also remedy the lack of expansion gap in the OSB. So, guys, is it worthwhile to redo the Tyvek and also cut in proper expansion gaps in the OSB? I'll go take some pics of the current Tyvek and attach them in a separate post "Subject Tyvek"...at some areas the Tyvek do not cover over the stud plate...

What could actually happen to a structure of 10'x12' built with tight OSB, where there is high humidity in the winter? My friend also suggests using proper cap nails on the Tyvek and the specific tape designed for using with Tyvek, if we redo the Tyvek. I saw in a video that you (Shannon) used staples on housewrap, so I guess staples are really ok to use if they are taped over? Is Tuck tape ok to usefor Tyvek? The second contractor's nephew said it's all ok, except he left without taping the staples, so I had to tape all the staples myself because they wouldn't be back for 2 weeks. The top staples were difficult to tape because I have osteoarthritis.

A little ironic that the studio is supposed to be my "Wellness & Creativity Studio" and so far it has created a lot of stress! Well actually it's the two deficient contractors who created the stress. Hopefully when it's finally finished the way it should be, it'll be all good!

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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Vivian » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:58 pm

Sorry I forgot to respond your comments about what type of roof overhang we planned to build. It is not a gable roof (I had to google what a 'gable' roof is : ) The plan was to just install metal roofing (Westform duraclad) 10' by approx 4' (the width of the studio and future porch), by attaching the metal roofing off the front of the studio approx 1 ft above the door, slightly slanted. That seemed to be the simplest way, and least costly. I am already way over my original budget...!

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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by A. Spruce » Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:53 pm

I specialized in remodel and repair, so I can't comment on the Tyvek installation.

This porch roof, it is a metal structure or sheets that will be laid over wood framing? As I commented to Shannon, I'd be inclined to remove the center post and use a header spanning the corner posts to open up the front of the studio more. I think you'll find that center post to be a bit of a pain. The only thing that adding a header will do is possibly raise the attachment point to the face of the studio. Odds are, headers were not factored in originally, judging by how the side roof was done.
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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Vivian » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:50 pm

Yes the roofing material we plan to use is metal sheets 36" wide, and can be cut to requested lengths when I order, so it will arrive pre-cut to size. I will talk with my friend (who will be doing the finishing work) about removing the center post - it does make sense to open up the front porch. In fact I have printed out all your advice (and Shannon's) and will discuss all of it with my friend when he starts work next Monday.

Thanks very much Spruce, for your efforts to advise me. One point you made that I'm not clear on, is what do you mean by "The only thing that adding a header will do is possibly raise the attachment point to the face of the studio." Please bear with me, I've gone through a steep learning curve on construction methods and terminology in the past month...

Ok, I can visualize that the header is simply the horizontal piece of wood connecting the corner posts, and the bottom end of the metal roof sheets are supported by the header. How thick should the header be? Could we compensate by decreasing the slope of the roof sheets, without compromising rain runoff efficiency, so that the attachment point is not raised? We had planned to attach the front roof sheets at where the vertical studs meet the horizontal studs header, which would be approx 8 feet from the ground.

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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Vivian » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:54 pm

Btw the side roof - the left 4 ft overhang, was done with the construction of the original shed, many years ago, probably when the house was built in the mid 80's. The only support it had was the lattice panel approx 1 ft wide, at the front. The back side of the overhang actually had no support. Only when I decide to renovate, the three 4x4 support posts were installed (wrongly).

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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by A. Spruce » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:39 pm

I feel your pain! It irritates me to no end that I have to be an expert on EVERYTHING because, as you've found with the people you've hired, incompetency runs rampant in today's world, no matter what profession you want to talk about.

Back on point, we are all glad to help, if there is ever anything you don't understand or are unclear on, just holler and we'll be more than happy to elaborate. What I meant about the header, where the top of the walls meet the rafters is the highest point at which you will be able to attach the roof.
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To span the 10 foot post spacing, the header will have to be a 4x10 or 4x12 or three sistered (laminated) 2x10 or 12. If you keep the center post a 4x6 or 4x8 may suffice, depending on snow load. The minimum height under the header is 6'8". I don't know what the minimum slope for metal roofing is, the manufacturer will have that info.

So, you have your max roof height at the top of the wall where the rafters protrude and have to allow for slope of the roof, which is what will set the maximum height of the header. Max height of header minus how tall the header itself is will equal your post height. After that calculation is done, you MUST be left with at least 6'8" under the header AND satisfy the minimum slope requirement of the roof. If you are subject to snow loads the header will have to be larger and the slope more pronounced.

Now, metal sheets of roofing don't support themselves, you will have to install rafters from the studio wall out over the header, then either install plywood or 1x slats to support the metal, whatever the manufacturer recommends. This is also going to affect your slope and header height, since a 2x4 is going to add about 2" to the header height. The reason it will only add about 2" is that the rafter will get notched over the header.

As for the side porch roof, if the rafters were cantilevered out over the wall without the ends being supported, you were smart to have the posts installed. I'd still recommend getting a header over those posts rather than relying on the fascia to carry the span. Again, snow loads will require a larger header, if you don't have that worry, then you can probably get away with a 4x6 or 4x8, since you're spanning +/- 6 feet between posts.

Are you going to connect the side porch roof to the front porch roof to create a wrap around roof/covered area?
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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Vivian » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:31 am

Wow, thanks for detailed recommendations! I had to re-read it a few times to digest this information, as the tasks of supporting the right side of the roof properly and building the front roof over the porch is more complicated that I knew.

I understand most of what you recommended, except for this paragraph:
"To span the 10 foot post spacing, the header will have to be a 4x10 or 4x12 or three sistered (laminated) 2x10 or 12. If you keep the center post a 4x6 or 4x8 may suffice, depending on snow load. The minimum height under the header is 6'8"."

I get that the header would have to 10 feet long to span the 10 foot spacing, but how could it be 4x12? A 12 ft long header would extend 1 ft out from the corner posts on both sides, but the total width of the 4 pieces of metal roof panels (at 36" wide) was to be layered to span 10', or maybe 10'2" so the edges are a little extended over the edges of the posts. Are you suggesting it's possible to span the metal roof panels 1' wider beyond the posts on both sides, so that the front porch roof will be wider than the studio roof on the right side? I'm trying to imagine how this would look, and I think it would look odd...

I didn't get this paragraph:
Again, snow loads will require a larger header, if you don't have that worry, then you can probably get away with a 4x6 or 4x8, since you're spanning +/- 6 feet between posts.
This is for the right side of the roof. Do you mean I could have a header to support just 6 or 8 feet of the spanned rafters? Would this mean reducing 3 side posts to two, and the 6 or 8 ft long header is centered between the outside edges of the 16 ft long roof? The dimensions of the studio roof is actually16'x6' left side, and 16'x10' right side. I'm wondering if there is some misunderstanding here because I hadn't provided the actual dimensions of the current shed roof.
Winter weather is relatively mild in my region, and we don't get tons of snow like the east coast, but there have been unusually big dumps of snow in the last few years - one year the snow load collapsed my greenhouse while I was away...

Anyway many thanks again for all your recommendations. Off to bed!

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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by A. Spruce » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:19 am

Vivian wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:31 am
I understand most of what you recommended, except for this paragraph:
"To span the 10 foot post spacing, the header will have to be a 4x10 or 4x12 or three sistered (laminated) 2x10 or 12. If you keep the center post a 4x6 or 4x8 may suffice, depending on snow load. The minimum height under the header is 6'8"."

I was talking about the dimensions of the beam needed to span a given distance, 4" wide x 10" or 12" tall to span a 10' gap. A 4"x6" or 4"x8" will span 5' if you keep the center post.

I didn't get this paragraph:
Again, snow loads will require a larger header, if you don't have that worry, then you can probably get away with a 4x6 or 4x8, since you're spanning +/- 6 feet between posts.
This is for the right side of the roof. Do you mean I could have a header to support just 6 or 8 feet of the spanned rafters? Would this mean reducing 3 side posts to two, and the 6 or 8 ft long header is centered between the outside edges of the 16 ft long roof? The dimensions of the studio roof is actually16'x6' left side, and 16'x10' right side. I'm wondering if there is some misunderstanding here because I hadn't provided the actual dimensions of the current shed roof.
Winter weather is relatively mild in my region, and we don't get tons of snow like the east coast, but there have been unusually big dumps of snow in the last few years - one year the snow load collapsed my greenhouse while I was away...

I was basing header size on the 12' length of the studio, figuring three posts, that would make for 6' spans between posts. If your roof length is 16' with three posts, then the spans would be 8' between post and a larger header would be needed for the longer span.
The size of the header is determined by the load and the span. As either of those factors increase, the size of the header must increase as well.
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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Shannon » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:56 am

You guys have this well looked after and me getting involved may only make it more confusing . There are many things being dealt with here and terminology as well.
What I will comment on is the house wrap. There is no need to tape all the staples unless they are tearing the warp. The wrap should cover the bottom of the walls if it is showing you could add some tape there as well.
As for the size of the beams/headers if you tell me what city/area you live in I can see what is recommended for your snow load.
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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Vivian » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:58 pm

Many thanks to all of you for your good advice, Shannon, Spruce, and Aaron. You guys are so helpful! I feel ever hopeful that my studio will be well-built from now on. Just gotta get all the deficiencies corrected properly.
Ok we will add tape to the bottom of the walls where the Tyvek doesn't quite cover. Is tuck tape ok for sealing the bottom or should we use the specific tape for Tyvek, or Blueskin? I've bought a roll of Blueskin and the packaging picture shows it can be at the bottom perimeter of buildings, or would it be overkill to use Blueskin over Tyvek?
I live in the central Vancouver Island area, Qualicum Beach. Thanks very much for helping me figure out snow load recommendations!
Sorry my posts got into different categories and it's become a bit confusing to track. From now I'll keep all my posts & questions under this subject "Misplaced support posts" since this appears to be the most serious deficiency from the first contractor.
Thanks everyone!

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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Vivian » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:00 pm

And many thanks to you, Spruce, for explaining what I didn't get - now I understand!
Have a great day everyone!

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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by A. Spruce » Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:03 pm

Glad to have helped. Keep us posted on your progress and update when finished. 8-)
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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Shannon » Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:21 pm

A 8" strip of Blueskin would be great but it should be under the Tyvek and the Tyvek Taped to it. The red tape will work fine and it can be Tuck tape. That is just a brand name.

As for the beams I would say you should have double 2x6 beams with support posts no more then 9' apart . You could use double 2x8 and keep posts no more then 11' apart as well.. Posts can be position with up to 16" of beam hanging over the outside edge if that helps. Joining the side roof to the front roof is going to make things more complex for your builder so keep that in mind if they are not skilled in roof building. Keeping the roof slopes and attachment heights the same will make this easier. This will not allow you to walk out under the roof at the outer edges by the look of the pictures however?
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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Vivian » Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:56 pm

Spruce: "I'd recommend cutting a flat of at least 3" on the bottom of the rafter tails where they will rest on the header. The header should be flush to the end of the rafter tails because this is where the posts are located, then the fascia can be installed over the ends of the rafter tails."
Shannon: "Spruce is completely right here ,that side roof needs to be supported with a beam. It will have to be temporarily supported while getting that all cut and in place. This would have been much easier in the first place but doable for sure now still."

Hi guys,
I finally have time to think through the finer details of your recommendations, and have a couple more questions please - would really appreciate some further guidance! : )

Does the newly installed 16' facscia need to be removed (the 4' wide overhang roof didn't have a fascia before this reno), in order to do the remedy work of installing a header also 16' long and flush it to the end of the rafter tails?

I guess that without removing the fascia, it may be tricky to cut 3" flats on the bottom of all the rafter tails, because currently the ends of the rafter tails are screwed to the fascia (?)

Thanks a lot!

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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by DanM » Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:06 pm

The header wouldn't need to be 16ft long. What you would need to have done is have each header sit in the corner of the wall (the top of the header flush with the top of the wall). Usually what I would do is put 1 regular stud + 3 jack studs at that corner to support the load from the header. The jack studs would be 6 1/4" shorter than the regular studs. This way a 2x10 header would sit flush with the top of the wall. The other end of each header would sit on your posts. You'd want to make sure the rafters have collar ties in the overhang area to help stabilize the whole thing, otherwise the headers are going to basically try and go spread eagle and the roof would collapse.

The center post isn't needed, personally I'd just get rid of it like Spruce mentioned.

The fascia board could stay on while this is done, it wouldn't affect anything.

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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by A. Spruce » Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:22 pm

Vivian wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:56 pm

Does the newly installed 16' facscia need to be removed (the 4' wide overhang roof didn't have a fascia before this reno), in order to do the remedy work of installing a header also 16' long and flush it to the end of the rafter tails?

I guess that without removing the fascia, it may be tricky to cut 3" flats on the bottom of all the rafter tails, because currently the ends of the rafter tails are screwed to the fascia (?)
I would think that removal of the fascia will make cutting the rafter tails much easier, just depends on the preferences of your worker and his abilities. At the very least, the lower fasteners will have to be removed or else he will be cutting into them when he modifies the rafters to be properly supported by the header.
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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Vivian » Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:59 pm

Thanks Spruce, I understand what you said, but Dan, it sounds like you're recommendation a totally different method and it looks very different. I'm not sure I've understood what you suggested, sorry! I just looked up what a "jack stud" and "rafter collars" look like so ok, you suggest putting jack studs to support the header which is to "sit" in the corner of the wall, with the other end of the header sitting on the posts... So, looking at the studio from the front face, would the two headers appear horizontal and run from the upper corner of the wall (supported by 1 stud and 3 jack studs) out to the two far corner support posts? If yes, wouldn't they only be 4 ft, which is the width of overhang roof extension? How come you said 2x10 header? Wouldn't these two headers be approx 4 ft, extending from the wall to the outer edge of the :? two posts at the two corners of the roof? :?

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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Vivian » Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:04 pm

Just posting another photo of the misplaced support post at the front, from rear angle...
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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by A. Spruce » Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:55 pm

Yeah, I couldn't follow dan's description either. I suspect he's talking about adding a header between your posts, which would then need the jack studs to support it, but odds are, the piers/post bases aren't there to support the jack studs. If this is the direction he's going, then IMHO, it simply adds more work. But again, I didn't follow his description. Also, without cutting a flat on the bottom of the rafter to sit on the header, attaching the two would need to be done with metal brackets, doable, but not ideal.
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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by DanM » Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:30 pm

Ya it's really hard to describe things with words sometimes. I wish I had a picture of something similar since that'd be 1000x easier to explain.

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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Vivian » Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:53 pm

I wonder if there is some confusion around which posts we are talking about, because this post trail has discussion on two sets of 3 support posts - the 3 posts at the front, and and 3 posts at the side.
Anyway I appreciate all your efforts to advise me, Dan & Spruce! : )
And thanks for suggesting an alternative method to securing the header - I think I like this method, with metal brackets, sounds easier to do, don't have to remove and re-attach the fascia, don't have to cut flats on all the rafters. At this point, I can live with "less than ideal", as long as it will still be reasonably structurally sound.

Sprucey, would you be so kind as to tell me the exact name of the brackets appropriate for supporting the 2x6x16 header?

I guess the header gets nailed to the fascia from the external side of the fascia?

I guess that since the right roof overhang only had the front lattice panel as support for many years, it should be ok. Only concern may be that when we re-do the roof - remove all the worn out shingles and replace with metal roofing & underlay - the support posts need to hold the weight of the roofer(s) while they work!

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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Vivian » Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:55 pm

Just saw your latest post, Dan. If it's easy for you to do, maybe you could draw a quick sketch, take a photo of it with your phone, and attach it? I'm curious and want to understand what you have in mind!

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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by A. Spruce » Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:12 pm

You would use a hurricane strap, or something similar.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004WATP0K/

As you can see in this pic, they are installed on the outside, which is where you'll have to put them if you don't flat cut the rafters on the header. If you flat cut the rafters, then these straps can be installed on the inside.
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Image
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This is another version of strap that does the same thing.
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Image

As for joining the header to the post, a post cap would be used, the type would depend on whether you use a 4x beam or laminated 2x beam. What's the difference, a 4x is 3.5" wide, where as a doubled 2x beam is only 3" wide. Note: The links in this post are to show you what I'm talking about, If you choose to purchase from Amazon, you will have to refine the search to make sure the price is reflective of what you're purchasing, some of these links are to cases of product, you only need a few pieces.
4x4 post cap https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GWEJUIU/
Double 2x post cap https://www.amazon.com/dp/B015U9TF56/
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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Vivian » Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:14 pm

Hi Spruce,
Thanks very much for the links and the pics - they really help me visualize and understand!
It looks like the rafters still need to be cut, in order to position the beam securely and attach the hurricane scraps; on the positive side, looking at the attachment points of the scrap to the beam, the fascia would not need to be removed to cut in wedge-like flats. Hope I got the terminology right! :oops:
It looks like the support beam needs to be 4x, because the post cap is 3" tall where it attaches to the support beam.
I will look for these accessories at the local construction supplies stores, and get the right number of pieces needed.
Thanks again for your expertise! :D

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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by A. Spruce » Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:45 pm

As I mentioned earlier, it will probably faster and easier to remove the fascia to cut the rafter tails, simple because it facilitates getting a saw in there. I would also say that because the fascia overlaps the ends of the rafters and the header, the fascia could be used as your positive connector, you wouldn't need the straps.
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Re: Misplaced support posts

Post by Vivian » Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:38 am

A. Spruce wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:45 pm
because the fascia overlaps the ends of the rafters and the header, the fascia could be used as your positive connector, you wouldn't need the straps.
Do you mean the fascia could connect with the support posts? Is this what is meant by "positive connector"?

Thanks!

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